ATT and acquisition article from Point Blank! Volume 6 Issue 2

Gordon

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I've been reading the back issues of Point Blank! (nice little 'zine, btw) and I'm puzzled by the article "Back to the Basics: The Acquisition Debate". I don't understand the following:

"In an urbanized area, when you are the attacker, and most of your opposition can be found in +3 or greater TEM, it might be a better thing to avoid placing at ATT aq counter ...".

I'm not sure why it would ever make sense to NOT place an ATT aq counter.

TIA
 

hongkongwargamer

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I've been reading the back issues of Point Blank! (nice little 'zine, btw) and I'm puzzled by the article "Back to the Basics: The Acquisition Debate". I don't understand the following:

"In an urbanized area, when you are the attacker, and most of your opposition can be found in +3 or greater TEM, it might be a better thing to avoid placing at ATT aq counter ...".

I'm not sure why it would ever make sense to NOT place an ATT aq counter.

TIA
My interpretation ..

ATT : you might get a hit .. but the effect will be half your MA HE on the IFT +3 .. read: Lame

Since you have to roll low anyway ..
Why not do a ITT and get max bang4buck on a low DR (plus an Acq)?

"The idea basically revolves around attempting to maximize the possibilities of 1,1 DR Critical Hits, while minimizing the non critical Hit effective HE hits that generate out to 2+3 and 2+4 attacks, which are far more likely to trip a 4 SAN than do any serious damage or have any real effect on the enemy within the target hex."
 

Gordon

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But mortars can only fire on the ATT, right?
 

von Marwitz

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I've been reading the back issues of Point Blank! (nice little 'zine, btw) and I'm puzzled by the article "Back to the Basics: The Acquisition Debate". I don't understand the following:

"In an urbanized area, when you are the attacker, and most of your opposition can be found in +3 or greater TEM, it might be a better thing to avoid placing at ATT aq counter ...".

I'm not sure why it would ever make sense to NOT place an ATT aq counter.

TIA
In an urban environment, most often the range of AFV firing at infantry is within 6 hexes, so the Basic TH# for the Infantry Target Type is 8. Because ranges are short in a densely built up area, AFV will usually be BU. With enemy Infantry within Buildings, they will have +2 or +3 TEM when unconcealed. This means that your Final TH# on the ITT without Acquisition will often be 5 (with a 27.8% to hit) or 4 (with a 16.7% chance to hit). If you hit, though, your chances of doing actual damage is good. Say, you have the common caliber of 75mm, you'll get a 14 FP flat or 12 FP flat if you use the IFT, which are both dangerous. Usually, though, when you are finally done gaining Acquisition to improve your To Hit chances, the enemy skulks away and reemerges someplace else to deny you tracking him with your Acquisition.

If you fire Area Target Type when the AFV is BU, you have a Basic TH# of 7, which drops to a Final TH# of 6 for being BU, which boils down to 41.7%. So while your chances to hit are much better, your FP will be halved to 7 FP or 6 FP if using the IFT for a 75mm Gun. What is worse, TEM is applied. A 7 FP or 6 FP Effects roll with a +2 or +3 DRM is nothing that really strikes fear into anyone.

Whatever Target Type you are using, you want to place an Acquisition Counter in any case. But what the article might have meant could be that the author is of the opinion, that one should use ITT rather than ATT. IMHO much depends on the caliber of your Gun: If you have a big 150mm Assault Gun, I'd probably go for ATT, because even with halved FP for resolution, it is still dangerous with decent immediate TH chances. If you have small caliber Guns, you might rather want to use IFE if possible to avoid the TH roll or use the ITT, because otherwise the FP and TEM will make your attack probably neglible.

Althogether, this highlights somewhat one of the rare weaknesses in the ASL system:
In practice, Assault Guns were just made for the purpose of dislodging Infantry from well protected positions. Within the body of ASL rules, they are especially ill suited for this very purpose unless the attacker has time (to acquire) and the opponent has no choices to skulk (to avoid acquisition and thus increased TH chances at full FP for the effects DR without the benefit of building TEM).

von Marwitz
 
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Gordon

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Thanks all for the responses. So for the particular case of small 1/2 mortars, I take it that the reason to not place Acq is that you want a critical hit or nothing as getting a low odds (I)IFT attack will be just as (if not more) likely to generate a SAN against yourself?
 

jrv

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One specialized case where it makes sense to use even small mortars in town is for stripping concealment from vehicles in buildings. A vehicle set up in a building will lose concealment on any hit, even if the hit has no effect.

JR
 

von Marwitz

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Thanks all for the responses. So for the particular case of small 1/2 mortars, I take it that the reason to not place Acq is that you want a critical hit or nothing as getting a low odds (I)IFT attack will be just as (if not more) likely to generate a SAN against yourself?
To reiterate:

If you decide to fire, then always place an Acquisition counter (either 1/2" or 5/8" Acqusition depending on the Target Type that you have selected). There is no disadvantage whatsoever of placing an Acquistion counter in itself. There may be a disadvatage to fire a weapon (It might break, trigger a Sniper, etc.).

von Marwitz
 

witchbottles

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To reiterate:

If you decide to fire, then always place an Acquisition counter (either 1/2" or 5/8" Acqusition depending on the Target Type that you have selected). There is no disadvantage whatsoever of placing an Acquistion counter in itself. There may be a disadvatage to fire a weapon (It might break, trigger a Sniper, etc.).

von Marwitz
The concept is that you do NOT want the added advantage of a non-CH ATT hit form a 1/2 inch SW mortar. The odds of the basic 7 TH # vs a non-concealed tgt in the building scoring a non-CH are 6/36. The odds of a -1 aq (5/8 inch ATT type acq) scoring the same non- CH hit on the same shot are 7/36 and the odds if the ATT acq is -2 are 8/36 for a non-CH hit. For all three cases, the odds of a CH on the ATT are still 1/36. Acq cannot change that. A non-CH is going to be resolved as a 2+3 vs a stone building, a 2+4 vs a fortified stone building. The CH is going to be resolved as a 4 -3 DRM or a 4-4 DRM respectively. The odds of generating either a an enemy SAN trigger at SANs of 4 or 5 are higher from a non-CH hit, and SAN can be triggered by either a TH or its resulting IFT resolution DR's. Since a 2+3 or a 2+4 IFT resolution DR is technically capable of resulting in something besides a SAN trigger, the IFT DR after a hit MUST be rolled. Ergo, you stand a higher chance of triggering the enemy SAN if you DO place ATT aq than if you don't, as you will be FORCEd to roll the non-CH 2+3 or 2+4 IFT Resolution DR's, effectively doubling your exposure to triggering an enemy SAN #. Acq May be placed, it CAN be rejected. So take the 1,1 TH CH's and do your best to minimize exposure to enemy SAN by NOT placing non-CH TH DR generated ATT acq.
 

jrv

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The odds of the basic 7 TH # vs a non-concealed tgt in the building scoring a non-CH are 6/36. The odds of a -1 aq (5/8 inch ATT type acq) scoring the same non- CH hit on the same shot are 7/36 and the odds if the ATT acq is -2 are 8/36 for a non-CH hit.
I am puzzled here; perhaps I am misunderstanding your calculation. The odds of rolling a sum of seven or less on two dice is 21/36. The odds for eight and nine are 26/36 & 30/36 respectively. If you subtract 1/36 from each, that is the chance of a non-CH hit. The chances of a effective result is still low for a small (50mm or less) MTR against a high TEM target, but not as small as your numbers were suggesting. Whether it will be less likely than an effective SAN will depend on the SAN. For instance it is SAN is two, I am fairly sure that you are more likely to get an effective result with the MTR than to get an effective SAN.

JR
 

witchbottles

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I am puzzled here; perhaps I am misunderstanding your calculation. The odds of rolling a sum of seven or less on two dice is 21/36. The odds for eight and nine are 26/36 & 30/36 respectively. If you subtract 1/36 from each, that is the chance of a non-CH hit. The chances of a effective result is still low for a small (50mm or less) MTR against a high TEM target, but not as small as your numbers were suggesting. Whether it will be less likely than an effective SAN will depend on the SAN. For instance it is SAN is two, I am fairly sure that you are more likely to get an effective result with the MTR than to get an effective SAN.

JR
I defer to your math with one caveat.

the odds of rolling a 3-7 DR or a 3-8 DR on a -1 acq or a 3-9 DR on a -2 acq are likely a fraction lower than 21/36, 26/36 and 30/36 would be my only contention to your math.


The intention is to illustrate the odds of rolling a 7 or less (or 8 or less or 9 or less, depending on acq level) WITHOUT rolling the 1,1 DR that generates a CH.
 

jrv

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I defer to your math with one caveat.

the odds of rolling a 3-7 DR or a 3-8 DR on a -1 acq or a 3-9 DR on a -2 acq are likely a fraction lower than 21/36, 26/36 and 30/36 would be my only contention to your math.
I gotcha covered. I said, "If you subtract 1/36 from each, that is the chance of a non-CH hit," i.e. the chance of a DR of three-to-N rather than two-to-N.

JR
 

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I believe what Witchbottles is saying taht he ONLY want as CH or nothing (because anything which is not a CH will likely do not damage to the enemy).

As only Snakes will give you the CH, it is better to miss with any other roll as to avoid the mandatory Effects DR in case of a hit, which could trigger a Sniper.

I guess there is a certain point to it for 50mm MTRs.

von Marwitz
 

witchbottles

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I gotcha covered. I said, "If you subtract 1/36 from each, that is the chance of a non-CH hit," i.e. the chance of a DR of three-to-N rather than two-to-N.

JR
QUOTE="von Marwitz, post: 1963615, member: 23351"]
I believe what Witchbottles is saying taht he ONLY want as CH or nothing (because anything which is not a CH will likely do not damage to the enemy).

As only Snakes will give you the CH, it is better to miss with any other roll as to avoid the mandatory Effects DR in case of a hit, which could trigger a Sniper.

I guess there is a certain point to it for 50mm MTRs.

von Marwitz
[/QUOTE]

Correct. By far, the most common Defender SAN # in an urban scenario or any urban CG is a 4. Why invite excess trouble when you will get plenty of shots from a 2 or 3 ROF SW mortar anyway, and double your exposure to a 4 SAN result by doubling the amount of DRs that can trigger it - without any gain whatsoever in your ability to seriously cripple the units you are shooting at in the +3 or +4 TEM? The Mtr has uses in an urban setting. They are to strip ?ment from bypassed vehicles, as JR mentioned, or to achieve the CHs that will cripple enemy positions in high TEM, or to prevent the "board edge creep" along the sundry woods half-hexes and force the enemy into the high TEM and across the open roads.

So a CH 2.8% chance or I'd rather miss 42.whatever percent of the time, rather than place acq that will force more hits and SAN triggering DRs that are not CH's.
 

von Marwitz

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The Mtr has uses in an urban setting. They are to strip ?ment from bypassed vehicles, as JR mentioned, or to achieve the CHs that will cripple enemy positions in high TEM, or to prevent the "board edge creep" along the sundry woods half-hexes and force the enemy into the high TEM and across the open roads.
Agreed. But besides this, the best value you get of those 50mm MTRs is often to throw them down the rooftop in a attempt to strike bypassing enemy infantry. I don't believe, though, that anyone has yet contrieved to pull this off. I for one, would grant style points... ;)

von Marwitz
 

dlazov

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Agreed. But besides this, the best value you get of those 50mm MTRs is often to throw them down the rooftop in a attempt to strike bypassing enemy infantry. I don't believe, though, that anyone has yet contrieved to pull this off. I for one, would grant style points... ;)

von Marwitz
If I understand you this is done frequently in RB as Russians from rooftop locations, at least in all my playings.
 

Eagle4ty

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If I understand you this is done frequently in RB as Russians from rooftop locations, at least in all my playings.
Early on and later in the fight against the large factory to the south those beastly 50mm Mtrs are a PITA to the Germans, The rest of the time they certainly keep the German honest and off those roof tops and provide a target for the Stukas to consider rather than taking on a more lucrative but harder to hit target.:sneaky:
 
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