An updated Red Barricades map or not?

[Stacks]

Why not release an updated Red Barricades map (historically correct) - if any players out there want to play with the original RB map from 1987 with errors, just provide "overlays-errors" so players can change their RB map to the original map printed 30 years ago, unless they can find an original map for sale.

Perry Sez: Research over the years has uncovered some changes that would make the Red Barricades map more accurate. But the existing map works great as is for Red Barricades. So we are not going to change the RB map at all.
Instead, we are going to provide in Red Factories overlays for some of the more important updates so that players can change their maps if they want. I don't have the overlay list at hand right now, but we'll be sharing it shortly
We also plan to put up for preorder separately a set of gutted factory overlays for all the factories in Red Factories for use when your factory becomes gutted. More on that later.

 

[Bryan Holtby]

A long time ago I recall CK, when he was an occasional member on these forums, stating he'd love the opportunity to redo the RB map given the superior information and photo's available now(then) than he originally had. Given that he had a few, somewhat fuzzy/smokey, aerial photos to work with he did a pretty amazing job the first time! Personally I'd like to see it to the accuracy lvl of the map included in Island of Fire.

 

[Honza]

Yeah I'd like to see an updated map. But the complications would arise. In the first place the scenarios and possibly the CGs would be affected and maybe unbalanced. Plus you would have confusion as to which map is the official version. Finally, the terrain changed throughout the battle. So do you create the map to look like the start of the battle, or the middle or the end?

 

[Bryan Holtby]

Well, you would have the buildings look as they did before the offensive but after the bombing campaign. This would render many of the multi hex non factory buildings in the southern half roofless and burnt out like VotG. While there would be many changes, roads to rail lines, Chemist Shop, and a few alterations to factory buildings, I dont think any of them would be significant enough to alter the balance, they would mostly be eye candy. A functioning Chemist shop does make the Com House harder to take but it ends up making the historical route the most likely path.

If CK is remaking the map, the new map would be official as LOS would not be the same anymore. As good as he is I doubt he'll be able to duplicate the multitude of LOS's that are barely a clean shot.

 

[Proff3RTR]

Yeah I'd like to see an updated map. But the complications would arise. In the first place the scenarios and possibly the CGs would be affected and maybe unbalanced. Plus you would have confusion as to which map is the official version. Finally, the terrain changed throughout the battle. So do you create the map to look like the start of the battle, or the middle or the end?

IMHO you should use 14th of October as the start point for the area, just before the fighting really started in the RB area.

 

[Proff3RTR]

Well, you would have the buildings look as they did before the offensive but after the bombing campaign. This would render many of the multi hex non factory buildings in the southern half roofless and burnt out like VotG. While there would be many changes, roads to rail lines, Chemist Shop, and a few alterations to factory buildings, I dont think any of them would be significant enough to alter the balance, they would mostly be eye candy. A functioning Chemist shop does make the Com House harder to take but it ends up making the historical route the most likely path.

If CK is remaking the map, the new map would be official as LOS would not be the same anymore. As good as he is I doubt he'll be able to duplicate the multitude of LOS's that are barely a clean shot.

Pz Pio Abt 50 attacked the Commies house from the area of the Chemist shop on the 11th Nov, best approach but they still got a good slapping.

 

[Honza]

I wouldn't go the overlay route if it was up to me. I'd have TWO maps. One old version and one new version. The new version would go in RF and the old version could be sold separately. Possibly going on pre-order like any other product.

 

[horseshoe]

Yeah I'd like to see an updated map. But the complications would arise. In the first place the scenarios and possibly the CGs would be affected and maybe unbalanced. Plus you would have confusion as to which map is the official version. Finally, the terrain changed throughout the battle. So do you create the map to look like the start of the battle, or the middle or the end?

You've raised a question that I've wondered about before as well. At what point in the battle is the current map portrayed? We know the 'Chemists Shop' was not rubbled, at least until after Hubertus, so the map is already slightly off. Just what is the right point in time to draw an HASL map? IMO, you would need a version for each different CG represented. So, in RB, you would need a fairly pristine map with little to no rubble or debris for the beginning CG and a totally devastated version of the map for the Hubertus CG, etc. I think the overlays being mentioned for RF is a good solution for the different times in the battle..

 

[Brad M-V]

One benefit resulting from MMP's decision, should be an earlier release.

 

[Capt. Batguano]

I've learned to love overlays and I like the choice they give. Plus we get it NOW instead of late 2019.

 

[Stacks]

One benefit resulting from MMP's decision, should be an earlier release.

One benfit, early release?? Please explain.

The Critical Hit fast-track-release-scheldue is that what your hoping for?

 

[Brad M-V]

One benfit, early release?? Please explain.

I'm just reiterating on what Perry stated. Not having to wait for a newly repainted RB map should save time.

 

[Stacks]

I'm just reiterating on what Perry stated. Not having to wait for a newly repainted RB map should save time.

Think you have misunderstood what "Perry stated", as you can see in the text below the RB map will be re-painted.

MMP sez: Charlie Kibler will paint all four maps in the same style (the source files are no longer available to us, so in order to reprint the RED BARRICADES map we have to repaint it).

 

[skarper]

I would hope someone updates the VASL version at least. That would be enough for me.

 

[BigAl737]

I would hope someone updates the VASL version at least. That would be enough for me.

v2 is out there ready for use right now. It includes a transform to non-rubble the chemist shop.

 

[Proff3RTR]

v2 is out there ready for use right now. It includes a transform to non-rubble the chemist shop.

And is very good indeed.

 

[skarper]

Thanks - was a little behind the times on these! Downloaded and I concur it is very good indeed.

 

[Brad M-V]

Think you have misunderstood what "Perry stated", as you can see in the text below the RB map will be re-painted.

MMP sez: Charlie Kibler will paint all four maps in the same style (the source files are no longer available to us, so in order to reprint the RED BARRICADES map we have to repaint it).

Damn, you're right! Sorry for wasting everyone's time on posting that brain-dead comment. I voted for the newest changes to be the next standard RB map, and the overlays to make the first map's setup. I haven't played the original RBs, but would still want to use the latest map changes without overlays.

 

[Eagle4ty]

Actually, you'll more than likely find out that by the time you reach the Chemist's Shop area, it will be rubbled anyway (at least 2/3rds of the time in my experience since the overlay became available). Either way, RB (especially the CG) is more to be experienced than played as a true competitive game (not that a high degree of competitiveness isn't inherent with it's playing). The points I'm interested in are to see if they incorporate Gutted non-factory buildings & NKVD Militia Companies (ala.-VotG, already incorporated into our RB games) or Debris Generation (ala.-FB, yet to be tried with our playing of RB). It's my hope they do take steps to clear up a few of the idiosyncrasies with the basic RB game such as having to "hand off" the Militia Company's SW to 1st Line units in the 1st RPh, or the ability of the German player to effectively prohibit or at least severely limit the Russian's ability to conduct a Night Attack by continually taking an Attack Chit. I certainly hope they find the balance of keeping the elegant simplicity of design while enhancing its inherent complexity of play.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I doubt the RB CG will be updated in the updated Chapter O.