Croix de Guerre Second Edition now available for preorder.

[ineation]

Yes - there's a sheet of them in Croix de Guerre by Avalon Hill. Didn't someone already mentioned that upstream?

Yes they did but your previous answer did not make sense to me. I had a good laugh... Lol, basically you are telling me that in order to play my brand new CdG; I'll have to hunt down a 1992 copy of CdG ! Or wait (how long) for another $$$ product.

Again, weird to me.

And again, I don't really mind as it is surely for a handful of scenarios only. Still a weird way of designing an offering. Of course I understand you have a different point of view; no problem for me the world is rich of different perspectives ;-)

 

[hongkongwargamer]

Yes they did but your previous answer did not make sense to me. I had a good laugh... Lol, basically you are telling me that in order to play my brand new CdG; I'll have to hunt down a 1992 copy of CdG ! Or wait (how long) for another $$$ product.

Again, weird to me.

And again, I don't really mind as it is surely for a handful of scenarios only. Still a weird way of designing an offering. Of course I understand you have a different point of view; no problem for me the world is rich of different perspectives ;-)

Dude. Get this straight : I ain’t MMP. I am not telling you to do anything. I honestly don’t care.

I just can’t see the lack of an overlay to be worth such dramas. Again, in a game system that is known for not being self contained, why all the moaning?

Unless someone promised a straight reprint of the AH CdG, why all the moaning?

If you want to talk about not being able to play a few scenarios because of missing overlays. What about other scenarios you can’t play because of missing OBs and boards? When’s the last time you got an ASL module where you can play every scenario?

I know I will enjoy CdG.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

Yes they did but your previous answer did not make sense to me. I had a good laugh... Lol, basically you are telling me that in order to play my brand new CdG; I'll have to hunt down a 1992 copy of CdG ! Or wait (how long) for another $$$ product.

Again, weird to me.

And again, I don't really mind as it is surely for a handful of scenarios only. Still a weird way of designing an offering. Of course I understand you have a different point of view; no problem for me the world is rich of different perspectives ;-)

I think we talked about options other then getting old modules as well, upstream.

 

[ineation]

I think we talked about options other then getting old modules as well, upstream.

You are really a funny guy. No moaning for me, just expressing that I find it weird but that it is not a big deal. You on the other hand, are a little bit aggressive. But it is ok, I don't care.
End of argument for me.

 

[BattleSchool]

MMP inherited an incomplete system of core modules. For a time, they tried to include everything from earlier editions in newer ones. However, a common complaint has been that core modules (with the exception of BV) are routinely out of stock. This has the added effect of making "common" components such as boards and overlays unavailable.

No inside knowledge here, but I suspect that MMP's efforts to release map and overlay bundles are a way to address this. (I applaud this move by the way, even though it will cost me extra.) In other words, if players purchase these bundles, they can still play all of the scenarios that are supported by the core modules that they do own. Moreover, if a player is uninterested in PTO, for instance, there is no longer any need to own Rising Sun, as the overlays that came with this module will be available elsewhere.

But ineation's point is a valid one with regard to Croix de Guerre, as half three of the original scenarios in CdG require one or more of the overlays included with the original module. (As Dan and Klas corrected me below, one scenario requires Hillock overlays that were never included with CdG.) It's unfortunate, but not altogether without recourse given that Optimistic Perry has confirmed that the Overlay Bundle will be printed in the near future, i.e., 2020.

 

[FMFCB]

MMP inherited an incomplete system of core modules. For a time, they tried to include everything from earlier editions in newer ones. However, a common complaint has been that core modules (with the exception of BV) are routinely out of stock. This has the added effect of making "common" components such as boards and overlays unavailable.

No inside knowledge here, but I suspect that MMP's efforts to release map and overlay bundles are a way to address this. (I applaud this move by the way, even though it will cost me extra.) In other words, if players purchase these bundles, they can still play all of the scenarios that are supported by the core modules that they do own. Moreover, if a player is uninterested in PTO, for instance, there is no longer any need to own Rising Sun, as the overlays that came with this module will be available elsewhere.

But ineation's point is a valid one with regard to Croix de Guerre, as half of the original scenarios in CdG require one or more of the overlays included with the original module. It's unfortunate, but not altogether without recourse given that Optimistic Perry has confirmed that the Overlay Bundle will be printed in the near future, i.e., 2020.

Why include 2 boards which you can order from the web site but not 1 sheet of overlays which is long out of print? Just a cost point of view seem strange. You don't need the boards to play the 8 original scenario? Maybe for the other scenario included?
Dave

 

[FMFCB]

Is there a list some where of the reprinted scenario that come with the new CdG?
Thanks
Dave

 

[Danno]

Of the original 8 scenarios in CDG 4 used overlays. But one is desert with desert overlays (hillocks). Those are also published but in WOA. Of the remaining three...two use stream 1 overlay only. There are more stream boards now and one of the stream boards may have been a better fit for the scenario.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

And again, I don't really mind as it is surely for a handful of scenarios only.

By my count two of the original eight CdG scenarios use only one stream overlay. One uses a stream and a lot of others as well (all of which I don't think came in CdG), one uses three Hillock overlay, and four uses no overlay.

I have not checked any of the "extra" out-of-print included - they can need things from many different products I would think.

 

[Robin Reeve]

If entire OBs or mapboards are needed to play certain scenarios in a core module, you certainly have to "find them out of the core modules".

Or are you saying everything - OBs, maps, overlays needed to play all the scenario in each Core Module are contained in the module? Which non SK module is self contained?

Up to now, if you just owned the core modules, you could play all the scenarios of the core modules.
I wasn't saying that each individual core module should comprise all the units and boards for its scenarios.
Core modules are meant to be reprinted.
AP and other additional scenario packs aren't.
Thus the difference between them and core modules.

 

[RobZagnut]

ineation has a good point. If you're going to reprint a core module it should at least include the components the previous module had, and then add extra scenarios, CG, HASL scenarios, counters, etc.

I think MMP was boxed into a corner by publishing the original CDG mapboards and overlays in other products. Something had to give. Because they would probably get twice the number of complaints from players wondering why they had to buy the same mapboards and overlays again...

So, once again MMP finds itself in typical gamer/adult children status; damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[BattleSchool]

By my count two of the original eight CdG scenarios use only one stream overlay. One uses a stream and a lot of others as well (all of which I don't think came in CdG), one uses three Hillock overlay, and four uses no overlay.

I have not checked any of the "extra" out-of-print included - they can need things from many different products I would think.

Fair point re Fratricidal Fighting. I didn't look closely at the overlay codes (Hillocks H1-3) when I posted earlier.

However, Bridge of the Seven Planets does use eight (8) overlays, all of which were included in the original module. But this scenario is exceptional in using more overlays in one scenario than in the other seven originals.

OG1, OG2, OG3, OG4, OG5 Criox de Guerre Open ground 1hex-5hex
St1 Criox de Guerre Stream 12 hexes
St2 Criox de Guerre Stream 14 hexes
St3 Criox de Guerre Stream 15 hexes
X7 Criox de Guerre 1-hex stone
X8 Criox de Guerre 1-hex stone Level 2
X9 Criox de Guerre 1-hex wooden
X10 Criox de Guerre 1-hex wooden
X11 Criox de Guerre Two 1-hex stone
X12 Criox de Guerre 2-hex stone rowhouse
X13 Criox de Guerre 2-hex wooden
X14 Criox de Guerre Stone 2-hex & 1-hex
X15 Criox de Guerre 2-hex stone & 1 wood
X16 Criox de Guerre 5-hex stone multistory
X17 Criox de Guerre 5-hex stone two-story
X18 Criox de Guerre Two 2-hex stone & 1 wood

 

[BattleSchool]

Why include 2 boards which you can order from the web site but not 1 sheet of overlays which is long out of print? Just a cost point of view seem strange. You don't need the boards to play the 8 original scenario? Maybe for the other scenario included?
Dave

I believe that including boards 42 and 43 with the new edition of CdG is consistent with MMP's intent to have all of the first 52 boards included in core modules. It's probably unnecessary given that boards 42 and 43 were included with Action Packs 1 and 3, not to mention the (first) map bundle, and are also availabe for purchase separately. As Rob has noted, it was a case where MMP was bound to be criticized whether it included these boards or not.

With the exception of BV3, which contains all of the boards needed to play the scenarios inside the module, I personally don't think there is any need to include boards in future editions of core modules (after Hollow Legions is republished with the desert boards 25-31). However, if the details for the next printing of FKaC are correct, the module will contain eight boards.

I would be fine with MMP dropping the boards from future print runs. Less overall production costs per module, and lowered shipping weight (about 400g in the case of FKaC) would make later printings more affordable, as players need only purchase boards that they are missing. The proviso, of course, is that MMP continues to make boards available separately.

To your other point, I have no idea how many of the other 26 previously-published scenarios in the new edition of CdG will require overlays from the original release of the module. But I'm betting you'll still have a lot of scenarios to play regardless. (This doesn't include eleven scenarios for the Dinant map.)

 

[FMFCB]

I believe that including boards 42 and 43 with the new edition of CdG is consistent with MMP's intent to have all of the first 52 boards included in core modules. It's probably unnecessary given that boards 42 and 43 were included with Action Packs 1 and 3, not to mention the (first) map bundle, and are also availabe for purchase separately. As Rob has noted, it was a case where MMP was bound to be criticized whether it included these boards or not.

With the exception of BV3, which contains all of the boards needed to play the scenarios inside the module, I personally don't think there is any need to include boards in future editions of core modules (after Hollow Legions is republished with the desert boards 25-31). However, if the details for the next printing of FKaC are correct, the module will contain eight boards.

I would be fine with MMP dropping the boards from future print runs. Less overall production costs per module, and lowered shipping weight (about 400g in the case of FKaC) would make later printings more affordable, as players need only purchase boards that they are missing. The proviso, of course, is that MMP continues to make boards available separately.

To your other point, I have no idea how many of the other 26 previously-published scenarios in the new edition of CdG will require overlays from the original release of the module. But I'm betting you'll still have a lot of scenarios to play regardless. (This doesn't include eleven scenarios for the Dinant map.)

Thanks for the insight.
Dave

 

[Kijug]

It's being printed and shipped no matter the P. That just gets you the discount before shipping.

Heh...Yea! ?

 

[hongkongwargamer]

Some very good points.

Include all the boards & overlays in the modules

• owners of older versions will complain that they are forced to buy the same things over
• modules goes out of print regularly, making those boards & overlays unavailable for scenarios from elsewhere

Not include all the boards & overlays in the modules & have them sold separately

• new players will complain they have to buy them separately

Include them both in modules & also sell them separately (already being done with maps)

• you get the same complaints from owners of older versions
• both modules & separate packs doesn't sell as much
• if you bundle the map or overlays together, you get complaints from folks owning some of them
• if you sell each map or overlays separately, you end up with a higher inventory and a much higher cost of sale

 

[Futbol]

Screw the Char 2C. This is what I want:

Char 2C - Tank Encyclopedia

Char FCM 2C, the French superheavy tank of 1922. Only ten were manufactured by the Mediterranean naval yards, on an initial order from 1917.

tanks-encyclopedia.com

And I suppose a girl could dream about:

FCM F1 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

CS 7?

 

[bprobst]

No inside knowledge here, but I suspect that MMP's efforts to release map and overlay bundles are a way to address this.

MMP are making an "effort" to create map bundles? They created one that is now sold out, with no apparent intent to reprint, and several other boards are also now unavailable because they have no apparent intent to reprint them either. What is worse -- that MMP adopt a policy of printing new scenarios that make no use of now-unavailable boards, or printing new scenarios that do, knowing that many players will now be unable to play them? It's not the end of the world either way ("there are always plenty of scenarios to play") but if I was attempting to buy into ASL from scratch I'd probably be pretty annoyed.

As for overlays in a core module ... are there scenarios in the new CdG that are unplayable even if you own all of the other current versions of the core modules? (Noting that, of course, not all of the current versions of core modules are available to purchase.) A core module should not include any scenario that is unplayable even if you own all previous MMP-edition core modules. RS and Yanks2 included some overlays specifically for that reason. (Similarly, no core module scenario should require the use of boards only available in non-core products.)

The Overlay Bundle will be useful for some, essential for others, but it's still only a band-aid to patch a problem that should never exist in the first place. It's not a difficult concept: if you include a scenario in a core module, make sure that all of the components required to play the scenario are available somewhere in the existing core module system. If you can't do that, then don't include that scenario (publish it in a Journal instead). Does the new CdG actually violate that concept?

 

[ineation]

Does the new CdG actually violate that concept?

It seems that it is a yes. Hence the debate

 

[boylermaker]

I have all the "New" core modules (i.e., everything but CdG and HL), and I will definitely need the previously-in-CdG overlays to play the scenarios physically, to answer @bprobst 's question.

It's been a while since I tallied this up, but of the scenarios that I own but don't have the physical kit for, the CdG overlays are probably the biggest thing I'm missing in terms of "number of scenarios I can now play once I have them". The previous biggest thing was the American OB and the CdG boards, so I was happy to get those in Yanks. #2 at the moment are the AP boards that are in CdG, so I'm happy to be getting those.

This is definitely an annoyance for me. I have no interest in the overlay module, which may never come out (and as Bruce points out, will not be a long-term solution if the map bundles are any indication), and will come out god-knows-when, and will include only overlays that I already have, except for the CdG ones. Unless they also withhold to the overlays from the upcoming HL, which it seems would be a huge slap in the face to consumers, if I understand correctly how overlays function in DTO. Obviously this a problem that is specific to when I joined the hobby, and since I mostly play VASL anyway, it's not a dealbreaker.

@hongkongwargamer asked whether it would keep me from buying CdG. No, it won't, but that's not the only question worth asking. This definitely annoys me, and it makes me trust MMP less. Not much, for now, but between VASL and BGD and a million other TPP, MMP doesn't have enough of a monopoly that they can annoy their customers forever. And how will they know whether they have annoyed us if we don't talk about it? I think that everybody should -- not can, should -- express their preferences on these things so that MMP knows how best to serve their customer base. So keep it coming, people who have both opinions! Or third and fourth and fifth opinions!