Why the ASL hate?

Sampato

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I've been reading through a spate of hex and counter wargame comparison threads/posts/articles, just out of a curiosity to see what else is out there and if I might like to try something different, and I have noticed that there always seems to be (an admittedly small number of) vocal people disparaging ASL popping up, in a way that the other games just do not seem to get, really at all in the same way.

Does anyone have any good ideas why this is? I've seen other games get criticised too, but it really seems like ASL can't walk out a door without someone giving it a kick in the butt on its way out.

Perhaps I am just a victim of my own browsing biases and am missing the criticism all the other games get?
 

Sparafucil3

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Believe it or not, there are still some old Squad Leader players out there who still feel betrayed all these years later. When you come across one, the level of vitriol can be quite shocking if you're not prepared for it. -- jim
 

ScottRomanowski

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I've heard people talk about similar reactions in other contexts. If a person doesn't like something, and many other people do (or vice-versa), if that person is not confident in their own opinions, then that person may perceive the others' liking it as an attack on their opinions, and react strongly.
 

Robin Reeve

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Some people hate ASL because it doesn't fit their idea of reality: they live in a delusion that a game can be a precise simulation rather than an approximative representation of reality (I often compare them as people expecting a picture by Turner or Van Gogh painters to equate a high definition photography).

Others are obsessed about some aspects of the system that leads to gaming tactics that they consider as "sleaze" (skulking, VBM freeze).
They simply cannot get over them (ignoring the basics of tactics: analyse, adapt, overcome).

Some complain that the counter and maps art is old fashioned (they love four season pizza-like aesthetics).

Most of those reactions/reasons are subjective, and most people will accept that and move on. But a small percentage equate their tastes with the objective truth, and will cling to them in a nearly ideological way (things become ideological when they consider that ASL players are idiots).
Their bitterness leads them to lose a lot of time spewing their anger against ASL.

Now, most people who love ASL greet their own subjective postive reasons which lead them to play the game - which makes them undersrand that it is not the cup of tea for everybody.

ASL certainly is an insanely complicated wargame, full of abstractions; and one could debate forever about this or that aspect that could possibly have been done better.
But its very powerful immersive and narrative aspects are stronger than all its warts.
Our inner kid loving to play with soldier models is fed by ASL (at least that is how it works for me).

I don't think that any of the angry, grumpy critics ever convinced people to turn away from ASL. So their battle is lost and their cause is a futile puff of smoke.
 

bendizoid

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I taught an excellent veteran wargamer how to play ASL- he hated it. I thought it was strange because we played lots of crazy games, Third Reich 4th ed., Fire in the East, a giant D-Day game (whose name escapes me), ect… I think it was the randomness and the chaos. Also the fact I knew all these squirrelly rules put him at a disadvantage and learning curve was too much for him. He had no inclination to put in the time or money to be competitive or competent in ASL. Das tut mere leid.
 

Sparafucil3

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I taught an excellent veteran wargamer how to play ASL- he hated it. I thought it was strange because we played lots of crazy games, Third Reich 4th ed., Fire in the East, a giant D-Day game (whose name escapes me), ect… I think it was the randomness and the chaos. Also the fact I knew all these squirrelly rules put him at a disadvantage and learning curve was too much for him. He had no inclination to put in the time to be competitive or competent in ASL. Das tut mere leid.
I was thinking some more on this. War is man arguably at his worst. For those of us educated in Western thinking, we are taught violence is not the answer, turn the other cheek, and all of those things (sorry, I am not well versed in eastern teachings). You can ignore this type of thinking when you're playing some grand-tactical level game, moving divisions, corps, and armies across the board. Sure, in your heart, you know what combat losses are but at that scale, its akin to Stalin's purported "The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic." Those grand tactical games are "statistical" games. ASL is much more visceral. You can track right down to the single man, laying in the mud, moving across the battlefield, struggling to stay alive. ASL is way closer to the "tragedy" than any other game I know. In that light, I wonder if it is not us who are unreasonable for our devotion to this game. -- jim
 

bendizoid

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I was thinking some more on this. War is man arguably at his worst. For those of us educated in Western thinking, we are taught violence is not the answer, turn the other cheek, and all of those things (sorry, I am not well versed in eastern teachings). You can ignore this type of thinking when you're playing some grand-tactical level game, moving divisions, corps, and armies across the board. Sure, in your heart, you know what combat losses are but at that scale, its akin to Stalin's purported "The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic." Those grand tactical games are "statistical" games. ASL is much more visceral. You can track right down to the single man, laying in the mud, moving across the battlefield, struggling to stay alive. ASL is way closer to the "tragedy" than any other game I know. In that light, I wonder if it is not us who are unreasonable for our devotion to this game. -- jim
Good theory but I don’t think this would apply to my friend Jim, he passed awhile ago.
I think ASL is like a Sam Peckinpah movie.
 

Sparafucil3

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Good theory but I don’t think this would apply to my friend Jim, he passed awhile ago.
I think ASL is like a Sam Peckinpaw movie
I am not saying it was referring to your friend. Just thinking about the topic more. Self reflection is never a bad thing. -- jim
 

Robin Reeve

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IRL I am a non-violent/turn the other cheek anabaptist - btw Christian faith comes from the Near East, so it can be argued that it is an Eastern religion.
If ASL were reality to me, I would not play it.
When I became a Christian, I stopped wargaming for several months, to evaluate if there was a tension or contradiction between that hobby and my deepest beliefs.
I came to the conclusion that wargaming develops much less violence than, say, playing a competitive sport.
ASL is a fantasy world to me - about as much as a dungeon crawler.

If people identify their wargaming with participitating in the demonic horror of a real war (there is no "clean" war: there always shall be dark powers unleashed, that escape control of good-intended people), they should stop and find a hobby that doesn't awake the fear or other negative feelings in them.
 
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dlazov

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Jealousy comes to mind for one thing. Another is money to get into it, or perceived money to get into it, granted prob 70% of us started in 1985 or after up to 2000 or so so the collection and investment is mute in a way.

Yeah, I have found several SL ONLY folks that have turned on the flamethrowers when approached on this subject.

I still think ASL is one of the few (very few) that was developed and designed back in the late 70s and then the late 80s that is still around and I think its not because all of the companies producing material at all, no I think its the community of ASL'ers that has kept ASL going for all these years.

And that is that part that I really don't understand about the other wargamers that put down ASL.
 

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I think its the community of ASL'ers that has kept ASL going for all these years.
I totally agree with this statement. From the 70's, many wargames were produced by AH, SPI, S&T Magazine, etc.
People still play them from time to time. Besides WBC and a few others, you don't hear of yearly tournaments for them as you do for ASL.
ASL is played World Wide in tournaments yearly. (Arnhem, Scandinavian Open, ASLOK, Winter Offensive, Albany, Bounding Fire, Sissukoni just to name a few.)
 
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pensatl1962

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I suspect for many prospective players there is a high barrier to entry: complex rules, several modules to purchase ($$), and many scenarios that they may not have access to. They may feel better served to play something more accessible. 🤷‍♂️
Not to mention they may not feel there are local players to help them learn the ropes.
 

Dion

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ASL is one of the most time tested, and from what I hear, pretty much the most complicated system on the planet. It's probably the one of most expensive systems too, if not the most expensive system. When your at that level, you always receive the most criticism, so what happens is the criticism looks twice bad as what it really is.

It's like that in all geniers of age, from sports to books, every single thing gets graded in diminutive detail, not just games, but everything, and the more popular you become the more criticized you become.

I would imagine ASL is so time tested everything is graded in diminutive detail by various "experts", not just players. When you consider its popularity, it becomes even more scrutinized with age.

PS - long live the hex, computerized or otherwise!
 

zgrose

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Gonna have to disagree that it’s the most complicated or most expensive game…
It is certainly complex, and if you buy things just to have them, it’s expensive, but I’m not sure you guys have been looking at other games in the modern market…

One box of Warhammer 40K in its SK version is nearly $200 and gets you far less stuff.
 

Ric of The LBC

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I've been reading through a spate of hex and counter wargame comparison threads/posts/articles, just out of a curiosity to see what else is out there and if I might like to try something different, and I have noticed that there always seems to be (an admittedly small number of) vocal people disparaging ASL popping up, in a way that the other games just do not seem to get, really at all in the same way.

Does anyone have any good ideas why this is? I've seen other games get criticised too, but it really seems like ASL can't walk out a door without someone giving it a kick in the butt on its way out.

Perhaps I am just a victim of my own browsing biases and am missing the criticism all the other games get?
always GOAT haters out there.
 

Turuk

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I suspect for many prospective players there is a high barrier to entry: complex rules, several modules to purchase ($$), and many scenarios that they may not have access to. They may feel better served to play something more accessible. 🤷‍♂️
Not to mention they may not feel there are local players to help them learn the ropes.
I think those are three reasons that tend to rub certain people the wrong way for different reasons.

For the rules complexity, some people refuse to believe that a system developed decades ago can still be viable in the modern board game market, much less that the complexity is a feature and not a bug; a bug that has clearly been "solved" by the more streamlined and easier to understand rules of other WWII squad wargames.

For the monetary investment, people feel that it's a built-in model that requires players to buy more content to play more. There are numerous niches within gaming (WH40K, MTG, etc.) that have an absurdly high cost to enter and/or keep up with the releases, but ASL offers multiple levels of investment where you could choose to stop and still have years worth of play. It all depends on what nationality/theater/focus you want to play. You can play an absurdly high number of scenarios with minimal module purchases, but I think the completionism mindset prevalent among some in the boardgaming community twitches when they see what they would "have" to buy to complete their core set.

The above point ties into the many scenarios they may not be able to access, which is a restricted view given the sheer number of scenarios that can be obtained for much less than a board gamer would spend on a new board game.

I understand the logic behind the complaints, but not the level of biased emotional response that it stokes.
 
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von Marwitz

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I would imagine ASL is so time tested everything is graded in diminutive detail by various "experts", not just players. When you consider its popularity, it becomes even more scrutinized with age.
I agree.

Just recently, we had a highly improbable situation during a game for which we had to look up the rules. I had read the rule in question countless times before in other contexts and wondered why some half sentence was in it because I could not imagine what it might be good for.

When trying to figure out our highly improbable situation, I suddenly realized that this half sentence perfectly addressed it.

Which means that someone who formulated the rule had "been there & done that" years and years ago. For me, this bears witness, that overall the ASL rules, regardless of their enormous complexity, are amazingly consistent and sound (despite the ton of Q&A which are still there). In my experience, many other games which are vastly less complex still have more ambiguity in many of their rules compared to ASL.


But with regard to the opening post and question:
Why are people critizising ASL harshly? I can only guess.

People who critizise ASL will likely compare it to numerous other more or less complicated wargames. Which means that they need to have invested time and effort to understand numerous other wargames.

If these people prefer simpler wargames, then ASL might just not suit them and condemn it for that reason. If people know various other very complicated wargames, then they will have needed to invest a solid amount of time to come to grips with others to develop some sort of proficiency in them. At the same time, it requires a whole damn lot of time to become proficient in ASL. If one is not willing to spent that time, the game might appear frustrating to some compared to those that they can master.

That said:
You will only find out if you like the game if you try for yourself.

Personally, ASL is enough for me with regard to complex wargames. I am still intrigued by World in Flames, but so far I had to admit to myself that I have not enough time to spare to get into it deeply enough to really play it instead of primarily digging through the rules.

von Marwitz
 
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Sampato

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Gonna have to disagree that it’s the most complicated or most expensive game…
It is certainly complex, and if you buy things just to have them, it’s expensive, but I’m not sure you guys have been looking at other games in the modern market…

One box of Warhammer 40K in its SK version is nearly $200 and gets you far less stuff.
Honestly how true your point on 40k is. I got into 40k back in 4th edition as a boy, the amount of birthday/gift/good school grades money spent... I wish I had bought more ASL 😁 I kid, I enjoyed it and it taught me many things, including what is actually value for money and what isn't. I would say ASL is GREAT value for money!
 
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