Using H Chapter to create scenarios

[JG53_Jaguar]

The recently published Scenario design Guide done by Mark Pitcavage that I just finished reading, got me interested to do some scenario design on my own. I'm currently reading the Chapter H DYO in ASL rulebook, just wondering was there ever article published about Chapter H ? I would like to sort of know what to look for and what to try to avoid when creating custom scenarios using the DYO method... how about you Mark, any thoughts ?

Since I think new scenarios are important to the ASL hobby how come we don't have a separate section for this ? Just a thought...

PS: Canadian dudes please do't hijack my theard again, thank you

 

[A Lost Canadian]

The recently published Scenario design Guide done by Mark Pitcavage that I just finished reading, got me interested to do some scenario design on my own. I'm currently reading the Chapter H DYO in ASL rulebook, just wondering was there ever article published about Chapter H ? I would like to sort of know what to look for and what to try to avoid when creating custom scenarios using the DYO method... how about you Mark, any thoughts ?

Since I think new scenarios are important to the ASL hobby how come we don't have a separate section for this ? Just a thought...

PS: Canadian dudes please do't hijack my theard again, thank you

"Please place your right hand on the rule book and repeat after me -
I somely swear
"I somely swear"
"To not hijack this thread"
"to not hijack this thread"
"No matter what CD says"
"No matter what CD says"
"So help me 10-3"
"So help me 10-3"
"You may sit down now.

 

[Canadian Dude]

Why dont you just name the thread "Attention Canadian Dudes, please highjack my thread."

Jesus Bugger man, honestly man.

Oh, and I was wondering, anyone here played that bridge CG from KGP. I'm in turn two of scenerio 1 with Lost and I must beat him!

- The Canadian Dude

 

[peterk1]

There was a Chapter H discussion a little while ago and it looked very much like no-one had ever used the system to automatically generate a DYO scenario/battle. You can still glean a lot of information from that chapter that lets you select a realistic OOB even if you never use the DYO method.

If you have SASL, the campaign game OOBs are also very handy to give you company sized building blocks for the various nations.

If you ever get your hands on an original Squad Leader rulebook - that thing had a very cool and quick method to generate a scenario quickly. It's a fun little section of the rules.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

This may not be what you're after (you seem to be looking for an analysis of the Chapter H "method") but I'll mention it anyway:

The General had a great DYO article at the time Streets of Fire came out that had generation tables for boards, victory conditions, and a host of stuff to use with Chapter H (in other words, Chapter H gives you the forces, this article let you generate all the other parameters randomly). Would be nice to see that article updated. Perhaps it would be appropriate for the ASL Wiki, then we could all contribute.

If you wanted me to scan the article for you, I think I could do so without breaking copyright (it is out of print) but it is somewhat dated in that it only has about half the currently available boards (though if you discount desert and jungle boards, that probably ain't so bad). A place to start, anyway.

Article is called "Going All Out: Design Your Own (My Way)" by G. Schmittgens and none other than Charlie Kibler. The General, Vol.24 No. 1.

Actually, I wonder what the ramifications would be of my typing it into a word document in ASLRB format as a separate chapter and updating the tables (with credit going to the original authors)? Or has someone else undertaken to do that or something similar with this article?

 

[JG53_Jaguar]

This may not be what you're after (you seem to be looking for an analysis of the Chapter H "method") but I'll mention it anyway:

The General had a great DYO article at the time Streets of Fire came out that had generation tables for boards, victory conditions, and a host of stuff to use with Chapter H (in other words, Chapter H gives you the forces, this article let you generate all the other parameters randomly). Would be nice to see that article updated. Perhaps it would be appropriate for the ASL Wiki, then we could all contribute.

If you wanted me to scan the article for you, I think I could do so without breaking copyright (it is out of print) but it is somewhat dated in that it only has about half the currently available boards (though if you discount desert and jungle boards, that probably ain't so bad). A place to start, anyway.

Article is called "Going All Out: Design Your Own (My Way)" by G. Schmittgens and none other than Charlie Kibler. The General, Vol.24 No. 1.

Actually, I wonder what the ramifications would be of my typing it into a word document in ASLRB format as a separate chapter and updating the tables? Or has someone else undertaken to do that or something similar with this article?

That would be really cool, I would very much appreciate that! In the meantime I'm going to read the chapter H, I think I saw somewhere a site with squad leader rules in updated form, to see if I can find the quick generation procedure for a battle.

Peterk1, I do have SASL II but I want armor in the scenarios as well...

We should at least have one sticky thread for scenario design, don't you guys think so ?

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Sure, shoot me an email at madorosh@shaw.ca and I'll scan it for you, with the understanding you're using it for personal use, blah blah blah. If you find it useful, send a ten spot to Charlie Kibler.

 

[SamB]

Jeeze...

Just because something is out of print does NOT mean it's OK to copy it.

Repeat. It does still break the copyright law to copy an article that was printed in the General.

Think building control and location control. Two separate things. One does not affect the other. Now think Copyright and in/out of print. Different things... not the same. It's still against the law.

Sam

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Jeeze...

Just because something is out of print does NOT mean it's OK to copy it.

Repeat. It does still break the copyright law to copy an article that was printed in the General.

Think building control and location control. Two separate things. One does not affect the other. Now think Copyright and in/out of print. Different things... not the same. It's still against the law.

Sam

So who holds the copyright on that picture of Homer Simpson in your avatar, Sam? Just curious.

 

[peterk1]

Peterk1, I do have SASL II but I want armor in the scenarios as well...

No problem, just add a couple or 3 of whatever you want to the company or battalion for support. The vast majority of interesting WWII battles at ASL scale were not armor heavy affairs - the AFV's were often just loaned to a company/battalion singly or as a platoon to help the infantry get a job done.

You can use the notes and the Rarity factors to decide what the most likely candidates are.

Likewise you would give the defender 3-4 AT guns if they were expecting the attack with armor.

Doesn't change the basic infantry building block that's the foundation of both OOBs.

 

[richfam]

Article is called "Going All Out: Design Your Own (My Way)" by G. Schmittgens and none other than Charlie Kibler. The General, Vol.24 No. 1.

Actually, I wonder what the ramifications would be of my typing it into a word document in ASLRB format as a separate chapter and updating the tables? Or has someone else undertaken to do that or something similar with this article?

Why not ask the original author about it?

Gregory Schmittgens (assuming this is the same person) is on CSW – he was the first one to spot the countersheet error in BV3 (msg #20536) – and I seem to recall that he has also posted here, although I can't find any posts from him at the moment, so I might be wrong about that.

Put a "paging" message with his name in the subject line both here and on CSW and I imagine you'll get a response.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Why not ask the original author about it?

Gregory Schmittgens (assuming this is the same person) is on CSW – he was the first one to spot the countersheet error in BV3 (msg #20536) – and I seem to recall that he has also posted here, although I can't find any posts from him at the moment, so I might be wrong about that.

Put a "paging" message with his name in the subject line both here and on CSW and I imagine you'll get a response.

Cool! Many thanks. I've emailed with C. Kibler many times, we played a few games of CM online. I think the copyright resides with MMP, though, who bought the rights to The General's content....am I right about that?

Anyway, just throwing around ideas. It was a great article in its day, I think it would be neat for someone to update it.

 

[Glennbo]

As someone who has both read Pitman's Scenario Guide, and read the General article and designed and played scenarios using it, as well as designed and played scenarios using the Chapter H method, I can safely say that the General generated DYO scenarios and Chapter H DYO scenarios have almost no historical basis to them, and ammount to near fantasy. Mark's guide concerns itself with designing the type of scenarios that other ASL players are willing to pay for and play: real historical actions that have actually occurred and are based on reality.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

As someone who has both read Pitman's Scenario Guide, and read the General article and designed and played scenarios using it, as well as designed and played scenarios using the Chapter H method, I can safely say that the General generated DYO scenarios and Chapter H DYO scenarios have almost no historical basis to them, and ammount to near fantasy.

No offence, but brilliant deduction, Sherlock. Obviously you are correct. I'll point out though that the focus of Chapter H DYO and that article was as a means to generating something in the space of 10 minutes without concern for "balance" or "historical background". Consider it the equivalent of the "Quick Battle" option in Combat Mission. Given the number of printed scenarios extant, there is no reason for anyone to be bored, but some people aren't really "in" to historical accuracy and just want to throw something together for fun. The point purchase system/rarity system is a fairly elegant solution to that - more elegant than the card draw system in SL. As with everything ASL, to each his own. Chapter H and the Ultimate Ultimate Guide are obviously different ends of the spectrum - and like Martha Stewart says, "that's a good thing." I don't think anyone was suggesting otherwise.

In fact, the appeal of Chapter H purchase scenarios and random terrain is that the prospect of an unbalanced scenario is high. Nearly all printed scenarios (if not 100 percent) claim to be evenly matched. There is an appeal in unmatched situations too, at least for some, and certainly more of a challenge.

 

[wrongway149]

The recently published Scenario design Guide done by Mark Pitcavage that I just finished reading, got me interested to do some scenario design on my own. I'm currently reading the Chapter H DYO in ASL rulebook, just wondering was there ever article published about Chapter H ? I would like to sort of know what to look for and what to try to avoid when creating custom scenarios using the DYO method... how about you Mark, any thoughts ?

One thing to remember-some of the vehicle and ordinance listings have not been updated since original publication, and are incorrect WRT availability dates, etc.

For example- the US M7 HMC has a PTO availability date of 10/44-- yet they were used on Saipan in July of that year.

 

[alanp]

Greg="ASL Couple" here; you can contact him via the Members List, above.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Greg="ASL Couple" here; you can contact him via the Members List, above.

Very helpful as always Alan, thank you.

Hm, you know, another cool option would be for VASL to allow this process to be automated, with purchase screens similar to Combat Mission's....maybe we can add that to Rodney Kinney's to do list, eh...?

 

[JG53_Jaguar]

I'm trying to figure out how to make ASL scenarios, I did read Mark's ASL scenario design guide. I want to start with something simple first and of course try to use resources that I have available to me right now. So I'm starting my research using DYO or the General article for now...I have been playing computer wargames for about 15 years now and I know that good scenarios doesn't always have to be exactly historical to be fun. Of course OOB should be tied to the specific time period and location but the actual scenario situation doesn't exactly have to follow specific historical event. Historical scenarios are fun for all the reasons but I also want to play scenarios that are not tied to a specific commander or to a specific historical event. This allows me to play freely with more open mind and to do things my way - I don't always want to be in someone's else shoes, sometimes I want to be in my own shoes doing my own thing.

 

[JG53_Jaguar]

No offence, but brilliant deduction, Sherlock. Obviously you are correct. I'll point out though that the focus of Chapter H DYO and that article was as a means to generating something in the space of 10 minutes without concern for "balance" or "historical background". Consider it the equivalent of the "Quick Battle" option in Combat Mission. Given the number of printed scenarios extant, there is no reason for anyone to be bored, but some people aren't really "in" to historical accuracy and just want to throw something together for fun. The point purchase system/rarity system is a fairly elegant solution to that - more elegant than the card draw system in SL. As with everything ASL, to each his own. Chapter H and the Ultimate Ultimate Guide are obviously different ends of the spectrum - and like Martha Stewart says, "that's a good thing." I don't think anyone was suggesting otherwise.

In fact, the appeal of Chapter H purchase scenarios and random terrain is that the prospect of an unbalanced scenario is high. Nearly all printed scenarios (if not 100 percent) claim to be evenly matched. There is an appeal in unmatched situations too, at least for some, and certainly more of a challenge.

Exactly, something like a quick battle in CM or Close Combat. Also when the generals/commanders fought their battles in WW2 each battle was fresh and new mostly unbalanced. So the dynamic generation method if done properly to a certain degree recreates this original new fresh feeling. I don't want to play balanced scenarios all the time...that's boring.

 

[peterk1]

Of course another option (and probably not much harder to do) is to bypass the "scenario " idea completely and do something a little bit longer, using a lightweight campaign system (Platoon Leader rules are avaiable for free).

The advantage of doing this is that the players effectively create their own "scenarios" for each battle according to the objectives they set for themselves.

Just dump a reasonable OOB on a large map for both sides, set an overall goal for the whole thing that can't be achieved in a single battle and let both sides go at it. This can keep the historical-only players (as long as your basing it on something that actually happened) AND the chaos/unbalanced players both happy!

It's "thinking out of the box" a bit and definitely underdone in ASL, but worth thinking about.