The May 1940 Campaign Scenario design

[jlbetin]

Three options for the French, two for the Belgian, three for the British: if I'm not mistaken, wouldn't that make something close to 18 different possible settings for the scenario, not counting eventual German variants? It'd probably be easier, both on the designer and on the players, to have a single set of variants per side, i.e. France, Belgium and the U.K. at their best, so so and as they were and maybe a couple of variants for the Germans.
Providing players with options is all right, but I'm leery of scenarios with too many a combination in terms of force settings, leading to weird results in terms of gameplay - not to speak of the serious workload thoroughly playtesting every possible combination will entail.

Worth around 0.02 €

Yes Yes Yes,
it was like this that I thought the TO, Best SoSo and real
I just want to explain to 1940 campaign newbies the implications of each TO

Concerning German, I do not think TO is usefull, they are at their best, their strategy is the correct one.

The only question is : "Is the Allies player on the 13th of May (not the 10th), after the initial move into Belgium, able to avoid the Sichelschnitt of the Von Kleist Panzer korp"

Many French options are reflecting bad luck or show non sense actions of some generals (Lafontaine Huntziger De Flavigny)

Der WanderMortAuxCons
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[nemo]

Even without modifying the equipment, a better deployment (the Breda plan being scrapped) and a better command and control system maybe wouldn't have saved the day anyway but would at least even the odds up to a point.
I'd rather have those two elements incorporated scenario wise than have a full crop of what-if units to contend with.

Amusant, soit dit en passant, de constater qu'il n'y a, à cette heure, quasiment que des français dans ce forum

 

[jlbetin]

All theses units could be goods. But they need lots of time to be ready to fight. An autocanon, with the canon on a truck/pickup would be ready in less than a minute.

Looking at last articles of GBM about DCR the self propelled guns were ready to enter the fight in July-October 1940 time frame. Weapons would be As40 with 75mm and Loraine based 105mm gun

Der WanderParStGeorgeViveLaCavalerie
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[kender79]

As40 with 75mm was only a prototype (and I'm not a big fan, preferring the German STUG)-> not before September in unit.

Lorraine based 105mm gun? I never see a photo of it.
In the GBM, they speak of a SPG (with a beautiful art) for the DCR model 1941, not in 1940.

The B1ter was closer to be be operational (3 or more tank were tested in may)

 

[nemo]

Yes Yes Yes,
it was like this that I thought the TO, Best SoSo and real
I just want to explain to 1940 campaign newbies the implications of each TO

All right, I get it - wasn't sure, hence my question.

The only question is : "Is the Allies player on the 13th of May (not the 10th), after the initial move into Belgium, able to avoid the Sichelschnitt of the Von Kleist Panzer korp"

Many French options are reflecting bad luck or show non sense actions of some generals (Lafontaine Huntziger De Flavigny)

The Allied player knows beforehand where the blow will fall; this in turn will inform its entire strategy. Given the nature of TOAW (the player assumes all levels of command), you can't - unless you entirely script the scenario at the risk of alienating the player - prevent the Allied commander from making better decisions than its historical counterparts, without hindrance or friction from inferior command levels, twisting the game balance. Hindsight and its effects has, at some point, to be factored in and, up to a point, neutered. Don't you think that's maybe the hardest thing to figure out, design wise, in such a scenario?

 

[kender79]

More than a replay scripted of the campaign, I would prefer a scenario with 2 or 3 turn before the beginning of the offensive, allowing a last time redeployment.

This redeployment could activate a better readiness of the French unit (next to 10% of the troops were in family the 10th may, troop movement would trigger some cancel).

 

[jlbetin]

The Allied player knows beforehand where the blow will fall; this in turn will inform its entire strategy. Given the nature of TOAW (the player assumes all levels of command), you can't - unless you entirely script the scenario at the risk of alienating the player - prevent the Allied commander from making better decisions than its historical counterparts, without hindrance or friction from inferior command levels, twisting the game balance. Hindsight and its effects has, at some point, to be factored in and, up to a point, neutered. Don't you think that's maybe the hardest thing to figure out, design wise, in such a scenario?

I can force some units in garrison mode (mostly Blegium, Brits ans 1st Army) in the defense line as they have to do the job the GQG order them hold the line.
After the 15th of May ally player will be free.

I do not want to invent a new strategy, I want to show if folowing the historical background and offering variants this could lead to the same result,
but IMHO I want it with in a honest point of view not the biased one driven by Petain or De Gaulle propaganda and anglo-saxon disdain against the French army of 1940.

40% of French army was at the same level of quality as German level 1 divisions (40% of German army too). Not under as I saw it in most of the other TOAW scenarios, where French HAVE TO lost are they are just surrendering monkeys.

To be clear the dyle option must be followed until German break or try to break the line (15th of May).
But
What if Lafontaine counter attack earlier,
What if DCR where more stronger to face the German Panzer division,
What if Huntzinger do not move back 3rd Dina to Inor
What if De Flavigny lead the counter attack the 14th
What if the French were more ready and better leaded.

To finish on a point before to go to bed :nuts:

More D2, no, due to rationalisation of production (in Real Daladier 27/09/39) stopped further D2 command for foccusing on only 4 kind of tanks R35/R40 H39, B1BIS, S35)
the war production for tanks must foccus for 1940 time frame on R40 H39 S35 B1BIS
Look GBM N°74p 48

on my A option we are one year earlier in production this permits to have the De Gaulle like DCR with B1bis and S35, H39 will go to BCC inside CA

I will remove FCM36 and replace them by H39 (FCM36 gun was the 37SA18) the crap one.
I will let D2 as 100 but remember in real its production is discarded in 1939)

OOPS I forgot, German are better organised and use voice radio so they will move quicker than French what ever the option is

Der WanderHotchkiss&Renault
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[nemo]

I'm off to bed too - we'll continue tomorrow.
Allez, au lit Jean-Luc et à demain !

 

[kender79]

So send all the D2 in Africa (in Tunisia against the Libya) with the FCM36.

Before upgrading the BCC inside CA with medium to heavy tank, It would be better to augment the number of Big motor unit:
More DLM (by transforming the DLC)
giving a few tank to the DIM (company CACC to bataillon BCC)
and more DCR (upgrading the army's Grp of BCC to DCR [Heavy Intervention Unit]).

Bonne nuit.

 

[Gustave]

So send all the D2 in Africa (in Tunisia against the Libya) with the FCM36.

Before upgrading the BCC inside CA with medium to heavy tank, It would be better to augment the number of Big motor unit:
More DLM (by transforming the DLC)
giving a few tank to the DIM (company CACC to bataillon BCC)
and more DCR (upgrading the army's Grp of BCC to DCR [Heavy Intervention Unit]).

Bonne nuit.

Yes, and don't forget to scrap FT17 and FCM-2C tanks. No need of those antics.

GUS

 

[kender79]

Yes, and don't forget to scrap FT17 and FCM-2C tanks. No need of those antics.

GUS

OK for the FCM-2C

For the FT17 use its turrets on light fortification lines. Or in colony as symbole.

 

[jlbetin]

Boys keep cool and keep our feet on the ground, do not expect massive change in TO&E and habbits of our officers

We are working with option A

Following figures of GBM at may 40 we may have, including pre war production

700 B1BIS
R40/R35 -> 1100
900 H39 + 400 H35 (using the new 37SA38) -> 1300 HXX ( only H39 will go to Cavalry for speed reasons)
100 D2

concerning the S35 400 were produced in may 40 we may think that 900 could be a reasonable value following option A

De Gaulle's Division cuirassée (DCu)
it consists for tanks only (infantry and arty will come latter in my future posts)
1 Heavy tank Regiment with 2 Btn -> 70 B1BIS
1 Medium tank Regiment with 2 Btn -> 96 S35 or 96 D2
a Light tank Btn 45 R35/40 (H39 were directed to cavalry units)

A rec Btn -> 32 Amd35 mdl178 with 25 gun and latter with 47mmSA35 + 2 motorcycle squadron

We may expect 4 DCu full ready and trained on May 10 and 2 under creation entering the fight round the 20th of may

It gives 6x70 B1BIS -> 420 B1BIS
96 D2 with 4 in reserve (for 1st DCu) will be replace latter with S35 or S40
5x96 S35 -> 450 S35 ( for 2 to 6 DCu)
6x45 R35/R40 -> 270 R35/40 All with 37SA38 gun

Cavalry DLM
Rather than 3 DLM we may expect 4 ready 2 to under formation but won't be ready until june

S35 96x4 -> 384 S35
H39 94x4 -> 376 H39 all with 37SA38
AMD35 48x4-> 192 AMD 35 with 25 mm will replaced with 47mm

DLC

To be continued

Der WanderGoingToAthena'sNightWalk
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The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
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[kender79]

Boys keep cool and keep our feet on the ground, do not expect massive change in TO&E and habbits of our officers

We are working with option A

Following figures of GBM at may 40 we may have, including pre war production

700 B1BIS
R40/R35 -> 1100
900 H39 + 400 H35 (using the new 37SA38) -> 1300 HXX ( only H39 will go to Cavalry for speed reasons)
100 D2

concerning the S35 400 were produced in may 40 we may think that 900 could be a reasonable value following option A

De Gaulle's Division cuirassée (DCu)
it consists for tanks only (infantry and arty will come latter in my future posts)
1 Heavy tank Regiment with 2 Btn -> 70 B1BIS
1 Medium tank Regiment with 2 Btn -> 96 S35 or 96 D2
a Light tank Btn 45 R35/40 (H39 were directed to cavalry units)

A rec Btn -> 32 Amd35 mdl178 with 25 gun and latter with 47mmSA35 + 2 motorcycle squadron

We may expect 4 DCu full ready and trained on May 10 and 2 under creation entering the fight round the 20th of may

It gives 6x70 B1BIS -> 420 B1BIS
96 D2 with 4 in reserve (for 1st DCu) will be replace latter with S35 or S40
5x96 S35 -> 450 S35 ( for 2 to 6 DCu)
6x45 R35/R40 -> 270 R35/40 All with 37SA38 gun

Cavalry DLM
Rather than 3 DLM we may expect 4 ready 2 to under formation but won't be ready until june

S35 96x4 -> 384 S35
H39 94x4 -> 376 H39 all with 37SA38
AMD35 48x4-> 192 AMD 35 with 25 mm will replaced with 47mm

DLC

To be continued

Der WanderGoingToAthena'sNightWalk

Try this :

DCR Format :
1 Heavy tank Regiment with 2 Btn -> 70 B1BIS
1 Medium tank Regiment with 2 Btn -> 96 S35 or 96 D2
1 rec Btn -> 32 Amd35 mdl178 with 25 gun and latter with 47mmSA35 + 2 motorcycle squadron
-----------------------------
> 166 tank + 32 AM


light tank will not survive heavy fight if they must follow the bi tank.
Keep it in independant BCC or send it in another unit. To scout, you have the AMD35 (could be upgrade to a reg if you want).
OLT, the S35 was a cavalery tank (-> cavalery DLM not in the infantery DCR).

DLM Format :
1 Medium tank Regiment with 2 Btn -> 96 S35
1 Light tank Regiment with 2 Btn -> 96 H39
1 rec Btn -> 48 Amd35 mdl178 with 25 gun and latter with 47mmSA35
-----------------------------
> 192 tank + 48 AM

DCR Unit
We may expect 3 DCu full ready and trained on May 10 and 3 under creation entering the fight round the 20th of may.
The first DCR was created in january.
The Second DCR was created just behind
The third DCR was a training unit for the 10th.
The fourth DCR was being assembled, needing training.
So you can alterate your scenario by creating the DCR in 1939 (in june - july) to have more unit ready or you must limit to 3 the number of unit combat ready.

-> 6 x 70 = 420 B1bis
-> 6 x 96 = 576 S35
-> 6 x 32 = 192 AMD35

DLM Unit
4 unit ready
2 unit forming
OK, the 4DLM's element was used to form the 4th DCR.
After Dunkerque, the DLM were reformed (format light) with materiel in stock. So, stocks must exist.

-> 6 x 96 = 576 S35
-> 6 x 96 = 576 H39
-> 6 x 48 = 288 AMD35

DLC
This this system, army can have better give a "Une demi-brigade de chars leger" of H39/H35 to the DLC (5 x 96 H39 = 576 H39 for 5 DLC).

And give better Gr of BCC to the Army (9 x 96 = 864 R35/R40)
think about all the front, infantery need support for local counterstrike.


----------------------------------------------
Total
----------------------------------------------
420 B1bis
576 + 576 = 1152 S35 (1056 with 96 D2)
576 + 576 = 1152 H39
9 x 96 = 864 R35/R40
192 + 288 = 480 AMD35

 

[jlbetin]

Remember my initial hypothesis Best of French

We have De Gaulle, since 1938 who have influenced in a substantial way the GQG to see his Line division created, for him medium tanks are D2 or S35, due to war production effort, D2 production is discontinued but the 100 are affected immeditaly to the 1st DCu to be created in mid 1939, then S35 will take the place of medium tank

Line division is made of 3 brigades
tank brigade
One regiment heavy -> B1BIS,
one regiment medium D2 or S35
one bataillon light -> H35/39 or R35/R40

one Motorized brigade
2 RI motorized and one Dragon Porté Btn

one Artillery brigade
two heavy btn (105c) and 3 light btn (75), I will add a 47mm AT Btn a 25mm AA Btn too

plus one Engineer Btn and a recco Btn (a Cuirassier like btn) and a reco airplane group Potez or Bloch 174

This said it makes thing clearer

For DLM and DLC I will respect the TO&E of 1940 but no more horses.All light tanks are H39 with 37SA38, AMD 35 and H39 are replacing the horses companies in DLC

Same for GRCA using horses, horses will be replaced by Light tanks


I will continue my OOB and TO&E description soon and then implement it in the TOAW III

I edit myself

Please remember that Best of French is hypothetical but not unrealistic.
For the two other option I will follow strictly the historical OOB, only TO&E will slightly evolve

Der WanderBuilder
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[kender79]

It's just too much :laugh:

A change in 1938 will give you an advance of 6-9 month in production.

Even with a GQG working efficiently, it would meet before the War some resistance from economic's players and pacifist lobby. And industrials would have some inertie before moving : see the time passed to create tools in 1939.

one bataillon light -> H35/39 or R35/R40

Can you explain me their mission? scoutting? For scouting, use the AMD
In tank combat mission, I think they will be dead early.

one Motorized brigade
2 RI motorized and one Dragon Porté Btn

Give them 2 Dragon Porte Regiment.
If no 4X4 transport, RI motorized.

All the DCR infantery was DP, at last in name (lacking vehicules TT)
2 x DPR double the infantery of the DCR
(PZ had 2 RI, no more)


Artillery : give them :
1 RATTTL (regiment d'artillery tractée tout terrain lourde : 36 obusiers de 105C)
1 RAD (regiment d'artillery divisionnaire : 36 obusiers de 75)
1 Gr AC (12 47mm)
1 Gp AC (12 25mm) or 2 Gr (24 pieces)

ok for the rest of the division


For the DLM : OK (if you want the best, think about 2 reg of S35 and no H39 ):laugh:

For the DLC :
you have to choice ;
upgrade the DLC in DLM (done for the 3 first DLM)
or
restructure the unit (not equipement by equipment)
Replace the AMR33 (chenillette with a MG) by a better AM.
The horse brigade must be replace by : 2 BCC (96 H39) and 1 RDP
-> becoming the fighting unit of this division.
-> 2 BCC, 2 RDP, 1 RAM

GRCA mot : Why not, use the existing format
juste change a escadron of motocyclist in an escadron of Char Léger (20 tanks).
GRDI : use the format GRDIm ( avec VB ), it 's the more powerful

 

[kender79]

For the DI and DIM, I propose the following strenght :

DIM
3 x RIm
1 x GRDI use the format GRDIm ( avec VB )
1 RADm
1 RADLm
integrat the Company de transport autonome (transport for the infantery)
Give them a Gr AC of 12 x 47mm AC (in place of 8)
Give them a Gr AA of 12 x 25mm AA (in place of 0?)


DI
3 x RI
1 x GRDI use the format GRDIm ( avec VB )
1 RAD
1 RADL
Give them a Gr AC of 12 x 47mm AC (in place of 8)
Give them a Gr AA of 12 x 25mm AA (in place of 0?)
no motorization out of the GRDI (see the motorization of DCR, DLC and DCR) -> horse, lots of horse
Upgrade a few unit in DIM.

 

[kender79]

The May 1940 Campaign : Fr Organisation

Strategic position proposal :

From North'see to Maginot :
North army detachement (in place of the 7 Army to protect Anwerpt and help the belgium army)with :
Ier Corps d'Armée (motorisé) (1 DIM + 1 DI)
a Grp of BCC (2 BCC)

the BEF : with a little more front (from the 7th army misssing) with 3 DI in 1srt line and 3 in second (not 2-2-2). Give them more 47mm and 25mm AC.

1st Army :
1st Cavalery Corps (2 DLM)
IIIe CA
IVe CA
Ve CA(m)

9th Army
2th Cavalery Corps (2 DLM covering Namur and givet)
IIe CA
XIe CA
XLIe CAF

2nd Army
Xe Corps d'Armée
XVIIIe Corps d'Armée

...

Reserve (ready to support a Belgium Battle or to go to an other front):
1st Groupement Cuirassé (GC 1 : 2 DCR) At Maubeuge
2nd Groupement Cuirassé (GC 2: 2 DCR) At Reims
5th and 6th DCR in training (Reims?)
XXIe Corps d'Armée (mot) (St Quentin?)
XXIIIe Corps d'Armée (mot) (Verdun?)
XVIe CA (mot)

 

[jlbetin]

It's just too much :laugh:

A change in 1938 will give you an advance of 6-9 month in production.
Even with a GQG working efficiently, it would meet before the War some resistance from economic's players and pacifist lobby. And industrials would have some inertie before moving : see the time passed to create tools in 1939.

In my mind and following ATF40 what if of Louis Capdebosq, as Gamelin was out of service, Generals like Huntzinger, George and obviously Colonel De Gaulle could have deeply influenced the general "fighting spirit of French GQG".
Remember too that Daladier and French parliament was offering all what the army was requesting on a silver plate without any deplaced comment.
The pacifist spirit was a Pétainist propanda leitmotiv, it is not the real spirit of France in 1938 1939 time frame

(About the light tank bataillon)
Can you explain me their mission? scoutting? For scouting, use the AMD
In tank combat mission, I think they will be dead early.

In Cavalry units the H39 was used in reco mode, so I will used them too in that role!

Concerning the TO&E of French divisions except the De Gaulles fomat of Division de Ligne, I will follow the OOB of 1940, I will just tranform the DLC from Horse/Track to motorized/Track. I Will do the same for GRCA and GRDI

see my preceeding message

For DLM and DLC I will respect the TO&E of 1940 but no more horses.All light tanks are H39 with 37SA38, AMD 35 and H39 are replacing the horses companies in DLC

Same for GRCA using horses, horses will be replaced by Light tanks

More to come

Der WanderFort_Of_Hackelberg
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JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a ███ WHQ/SZO/XG® product since 01/2003
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[jlbetin]

Your opinion

QUESTION :

For playability, is it better to define a unit or tank member of the 2 Light Mechanised Division by instance the 8th Cuirassiers
as
8EME CUIRASSIERS
or as
8 CUIR - 2 DLM

Your answers ?

Der WanderWhat'sYourName
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JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a ███ WHQ/SZO/XG® product since 01/2003
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[L`zard]

Re: Your opinion

QUESTION :

For playability, is it better to define a unit or tank member of the 2 Light Mechanised Division by instance the 8th Cuirassiers as
'8EME CUIRASSIERS' or as '8 CUIR - 2 DLM'

Jean-Luc;

As a non-francophone, I personally am in favor of the '8 cuir/2dlm' appelation.

Reads slightly better towards the hierarchy for me, eh?

On the other hand, the names you Francs might put on a unit certainly sound neat, LOL!

Just reading the lists of the units at Dien Bien Phu sounds like a song, eh?

Of course I've always been a fool for 'Cuirassiers', one of the few franco terms I can pronounce correctly.......that and 'Chasseurs'....LOL!



:smoke: