SMOKE and BUILDING ELEVATION

[Larry]

Question about firing SMOKE into a building where a gun cannot claim LOS to the ground leve:

Assume a non-MTR gun has LOS to a level 2 or higher building location with KEU but not to level 0 or level 1. It fires SMOKE in the prep fire phase and rolls a hit.

a) Is the SMOKE placed on a level counter equal to the lowest location to which the gun can claim LOS? This would SMOKE the location containing the KEU.

b) Is the SMOKE placed on the ground level location? This result leaves the units at level 2 or higher (rooftop in my opponent's case) out of the SMOKE and able to fire with hindrance.

The non-MTR gun can only affect locations to which it can claim LOS so it seems that the SMOKE would get placed on the counter containing the highest location to which the gun can claim LOS.

Thanks for the insight guys.

 

[Pitman]

Smoke is from the ground level.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Mark is perfectly right.
Here is the rule that confirms his reply :
C8.52 SMOKE ammunition is always placed at ground level in any target hex which is hit on the Area Target Type, except Interior Building hexes, even if the only visible part of that hex is the upper level of a building. A Gun cannot place SMOKE in its own hex, although some AFV may place smoke in their own hex without their Gun (D13).

 

[Larry]

To take the analysis one step further, units on level 2 or higher can never have ordnance smoke in their location, although they could have WP. The only way to obscure the vision of units at level 2 would be to place the smoke in the hex in front of them since the smoke rises to level 2 and then any shot down in elevation would incur the hindrance DRM. Level 3 whether in a tower or on a roof would require careful planning and consideration to use smoke to obscure their shots.

This discussion and the related WP discussion make clear that units in the upper levels of buildings can enjoy certain immunity to ordnance smoke in their location.

 

[Ole Boe]

The only way to obscure the vision of units at level 2 would be to place the smoke in the hex in front of them since the smoke rises to level 2 and then any shot down in elevation would incur the hindrance DRM.

I wish you were right, since I think that would make more sense than the actual rule, but the A24.4 example shows that a unit on level 2 will be hindered by SMOKE in its hex whenever he fires to a lower level.

He is not considered to fire out of SMOKE since the SMOKE only fills the two lowest levels, but is nevertheless hindered by the SMOKE in its hex.

I think it would make more sense to think of the SMOKE as a two-level (inherent terrain) building: If your unit would get the building TEM, he is IN the SMOKE. If the building would block the LOS, he is hindered by the SMOKE.

This is mostly true, but the example also shows that in addition, a unit is hindered by SMOKE if it reaches up to the unit's level if the LOS goes to/from a lower level.

 

[Brian W]

I wish you were right, since I think that would make more sense than the actual rule, but the A24.4 example shows that a unit on level 2 will be hindered by SMOKE in its hex whenever he fires to a lower level.

I am glad he is not right, and think the rule makes perfect sense.

 

[Ole Boe]

I am glad he is not right, and think the rule makes perfect sense.

It's no big deal, my previous post may have made it look more important than it is, but just don't get why your bullets will go through the SMOKE beneath you when firing downwards, but not go through the floor which is at the same height as the SMOKE.

If you're on level two of a building that touches the hexside, the floor is at the same height as the top of the SMOKE, and your bullets go through the SMOKE, but over the floor. That seems weird to me, but I can live with this aspect of ASL physics too.

 

[Larry]

Just to put a finer edge on the discussion: while a unit on level 2 of a building firing to any lower location will get hindered if its location has smoke but will not get hindered if firing at same or higher levels.

For units at level 3, whether in or on the roof, those units never get hindered by level 2 smoke beneath them ... ?

 

[Ole Boe]

That seems to me like a correct summary, Larry.