Perry Sez B13.4211 applicable to B28.7

Chas

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In Perry Sez Scott R asked:
B13.4211 says "A wreck or Immobile vehicle on a TB counter removes that TB". Should that 'Immobile' be read as 'immobilized' (e.g., C7.5, D8.1), or based on the Index entry for 'Immobile', do the following events also cause removal of the TB the vehicle is on:
  • the crew is stunned or broken, or the vehicle is Shocked?
  • the crew of a Carrier dismounts?
Perry answered
Yes; look for errata to change “Immobile” to “immobilized”.
My question now is will B28.7 also be changed from Immobile to Immobilized for consistency?
 

Sparafucil3

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In Perry Sez Scott R asked:

Perry answered


My question now is will B28.7 also be changed from Immobile to Immobilized for consistency?
@Perry in case you didn't see this. @klasmalmstrom so you can have it on your list of things to discuss. -- jim
 

ScottRomanowski

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I think in B28.7, if the Flail Tank is Immobile due to stun/STUN/Shock it would not be able to clear the mines, just like the requirement in B24.74 that Infantry have to be GO and unpinned.

There might be some really wonky business possible with B28.7. You designate that a Flail Tank in hex A1 will clear mines in A2, and move it to A2 without using ESB. The tank is immune to minefield attack in A2. It's marked with a Motion counter but that doesn't ends its MPh. It then ESBs successfully and enters hex A3 (still immune to minefield attacks in A2 as it exits). There's not requirement in B28.7 that the vehicle end its MPh in the hex! It cannot clear A2, as it clears minefields "in its hex" in the CCPh, nor can it clear A3, as it didn't spend its "entire printed MP" in A3, but it passed through A2 unscathed and leaves a TB! This is obviously against the intent of B28.7.
 

zgrose

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There's not requirement in B28.7 that the vehicle end its MPh in the hex!
I would say the requirement is in 24.7...

-- A Flail Tank (U.S. Vehicle Note 20; British Vehicle Notes 24 and 26) may engage in Mine Clearance by specifying at the start of its MPh that it will do so and
-- From the time a unit declares a Clearance attempt, it is considered engaged in that attempt until it makes a Clearance DR, is pinned, or is no longer Good Order.
 

ScottRomanowski

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A Flail Tank (U.S. Vehicle Note 20; British Vehicle Notes 24 and 26) may engage in Mine Clearance by specifying at the start of its MPh that it will do so and
Yes, that's met. "I'm going to attempt mine clearance in hex A2". The unit enters using all its printed MP without ESB. But it doesn't fulfill the rest of the requirements, so no clearance actually happens.

-- From the time a unit declares a Clearance attempt, it is considered engaged in that attempt until it makes a Clearance DR, is pinned, or is no longer Good Order.
That too is met. There's no requirement that the Flail tank remain in the location. That's why I say it's wonky and should be closed, but I think it's very low priority because I don't think anyone could use the wonky loophole I described and not die of shame.

D2.7 covers the cases where the Terrain Chart shows "ALL"; ESB is prohibited there. But this is not on the terrain chart.
 

zgrose

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>There's no requirement that the Flail tank remain in the location.
Well, you keep saying that is the case, but you didn't do what you declared you were doing. Anywho. Seems covered by the rules to me.
 

Chas

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Scott,

You are going down a rabbit hole that does not exist.
B24.7 and B24.74 (which is referenced in B28.7) explicitly states ..."become TI, and attempt to clear the minefield at the end of their CCPh"
There is absolutely 100% no further discussion necessary because once a Flail tank announces it is Clearing and enters the mine hex, it cannot declare ESB and exit the hex.

With that, my original post may be off based on what rules reference is used. The Immobile reference in B28.7 may be ok since it is solely referencing making the DR.
The linkage is between Good Order, Immobile, etc. with possible 2nd and 3rd order effects. Looking at this it might be ok once you conneecct barous dots between various rules. B24.74 stating no other unit may use the partial TB is huge (I missed it earlier) and may make my concern irrelevant.

B28.7 is now appearing to me to be a long way of saying use B24.7; B24.74 except the DR needed is <=10 and no Infantry/Calvary/vulnerable PRC may be in the hex.
 

ScottRomanowski

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B24.7 and B24.74 (which is referenced in B28.7) explicitly states ..."become TI, and attempt to clear the minefield at the end of their CCPh"
The part of the sentence you omitted says this is how "Good Order Infantry" can attempt minefield clearance, so it doesn't apply to vehicles. The B28.7 reference to B24.74 deals with creating the TB, not the requirements to attempt clearance.
There is absolutely 100% no further discussion necessary because once a Flail tank announces it is Clearing and enters the mine hex, it cannot declare ESB and exit the hex.
I agree that it's a rabbit hole that would be embarrassing to use. But where is the part that forbids using ESB after expending "all" MP in this case? It should be in D2.5 or D2.7. I'm bringing this up because this might not be the only place where a vehicle has to spend its Printed MP allotment (or "ALL") but D2.7 doesn't apply.

Well, you keep saying that is the case, but you didn't do what you declared you were doing. Anywho. Seems covered by the rules to me.
What if it fires in the AFPh, which seems to be anticipated as a way of voiding the clearance attempt?
 

zgrose

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Your premise is that one can voluntarily void the Clearance attempt after declaring it. B24.7 reads to me as a prohibition against engaging in other activities.

(edit: extra details)
28.7 FLAIL TANKS: A Flail Tank (U.S. Vehicle Note 20; British Vehicle Notes 24 and 26) may engage in Mine Clearance...

24.7 CLEARANCE: Rubble, Wire, mines, Set DC, roadblocks, and Flame may all be removed as Tasks by units (at least one MMC/dozer) in the same Location which become TI through the Clearance process using similar rules and DRM. From the time a unit declares a Clearance attempt, it is considered engaged in that attempt until it makes a Clearance DR, is pinned, or is no longer Good Order. Only unpinned, Good Order units may engage in Clearance attempts.

Mine Clearance seems a pretty clear reference to 24.7 and that applies to units.

(edit2) Ah, I see now where you get the one cited exception, firing, in B28.7.
 
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klasmalmstrom

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B28.7:
"A Flail Tank... ...may engage in Mine Clearance by specifying at the start of its MPh that it will do so and expending its entire printed MP allotment (other than any MP for Starting/changing-VCA) to enter a hex, using neither Reverse nor VBM nor ESB."

Regardless if ESB is ok or not - I do wonder if one can after specifying what one intends to do, and then do it and enter the hex, and spend MP - then later decide to stop what one has specified (and moved to do) and do something else....sounds a tad odd to me if that was allowed....ymmv.
 
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