OVR Flowchart and Reaction Fire

[KenYoung]

A little help please. I'm trying to understand OVR and the correct timing of Reaction Fire. After looking over the OVR Flowchart and looking in the rule book. I still had some questions.
The chart for Defensive Fire Option before an OVR checks that I can fire IFT/LATW/Gun before the OVR. But the last line of D7.2 says

"Reaction Fire vs an OVRing vehicle is resolved immediately after the resolution of that OVR."

So which is correct? What am I missing?

While I'm asking questions about the OVR Flowchart. "Vehicular Bounding First Fire Options" points out that BFF From Bypass must add the exrta Case A for

D2.321 "A TCA based on a Bypass side Target Facing covers a potentially much larger Field of Fire (all hexes on that side of the firer between the front and rear Target Facings) and consequently must pay appropriate Case A (C5.1) penalties for firing within this enlarged CA even if it does not change its TCA [EXC: a weapon firing with an already earned Target Acquisition DRM (or, in the case of a CMG/IFE/Canister, vs the same Known target in the same Target Facing as last fired on) does not have to add Case A to fire within its current CA]."

But reading

C5.13 BOUNDING FIRST FIRE: Case A is never applicable to an ATTACKER firing during his own MPh. A Bounding First Firer must always fire within its current CA; it may change that CA only via MP expenditure (TCA D3.12; VCA D2.11).

No Case A DRM apply to BFF. How should I play it, by the Rule book or the Flowchart? :hmmm:

 

[volgaG68]

A little help please. I'm trying to understand OVR and the correct timing of Reaction Fire. After looking over the OVR Flowchart and looking in the rule book. I still had some questions.
The chart for Defensive Fire Option before an OVR checks that I can fire IFT/LATW/Gun before the OVR. But the last line of D7.2 says So which is correct? What am I missing?

A vehicle moves into the hex next to you. You declare DF with IFT/LATW/Gun normally before he announces his next MP expenditure. Let's say you decline this normal option. He then declares, "Now I'm going to enter your hex and execute an Overrun." Now that an Overrun has been declared you are not able to fire these weapons as Reaction Fire until the OVR has been resolved. Hold your fire? There's a price for that.

 

[jrv]

Typically DFF occurs before a BFF attack. OVR is a type of BFF attack, so you can DFF before the OVR. In addition, there is a type of DFF, called Reaction Fire, that occurs after the OVR. So Reaction Fire is an additional option beyond normal DFF, and it has some differences from regular DFF. It allows CC attacks as CC-RF. For non-CC weapons, it has certain advantages over regular DFF, for instance ordnance is always assumed to hit the rear target facing when using non-CC RF. In regular DFF the target facing hit is determined by the colored dr.

I don't have any suggestions for the second question.

JR

 

[EagleIV]

First Reaction fire is a form of CC attack/ IFT/Gun/LATW are First/Final Fire/FPF not Reaction Fire.

Your reference to C5.13 and Case A applies to the ATTACKER (the player moving in the MPh). If you want to change you VCA/TCA during your MPh so that you can fire at another hex you must change it per D2.11 and D3.12 before you declare the shot.

Note that Case A might apply to the unit being OVR, but never to the unit doing the OVR.

I hope this helps.

 

[jrv]

A vehicle moves into the hex next to you. You declare DF with IFT/LATW/Gun normally before he announces his next MP expenditure. Let's say you decline this normal option. He then declares, "Now I'm going to enter your hex and execute an Overrun." Now that an Overrun has been declared you are not able to fire these weapons as Reaction Fire until the OVR has been resolved. Hold your fire? There's a price for that.

Even though the OVR has been declared, you can still fire on the vehicle using regular DFF, which will occur before the resolution of the OVR. There are certain advantages to waiting until after, but the option to shoot first is still there. Once the OVR has been declared, it will be resolved. It will be resolved at half FP if the vehicle was destroyed or immobilized by (regular) DFF.

JR

 

[Stewart]

A little help please. I'm trying to understand OVR and the correct timing of Reaction Fire. After looking over the OVR Flowchart and looking in the rule book. I still had some questions.
The chart for Defensive Fire Option before an OVR checks that I can fire IFT/LATW/Gun before the OVR. But the last line of D7.2 says So which is correct? What am I missing?

While I'm asking questions about the OVR Flowchart. "Vehicular Bounding First Fire Options" points out that BFF From Bypass must add the exrta Case A for
But reading
No Case A DRM apply to BFF. How should I play it, by the Rule book or the Flowchart? :hmmm:

Your confusion lies in vehicle MP expenditures.
A vehicle may enter your hex and NOT OVR and thus subject to Reaction Fire.
A declared OVR of a vehicle delays the IN HEX Reaction fire.

No CASE A DRM to BFF simply because TCA changes are FREE in the MPh.
Bypassing vehicles, due to a HUGE CA on side orientation always get a +1 DRM for fire in the side attacks.

 

[KenYoung]

D7.2 REACTION FIRE: Reaction Fire is conducted during the MPh by the DEFENDER, who uses it to attack a vehicle in that DEFENDER'S (or, if using Street Fighting [7.211], in an allowed ADJACENT) Location. There are two types of Reaction Fire: CC Reaction Fire (7.21), which is resolved on the CCT; and Non-CC Reaction Fire (7.22), which is resolved on a TK Table or the IFT and which can be used only vs an OVR. Except as stated otherwise, a DEFENDER may use Reaction Fire as often as it is able to use the various forms of First/Final Fire. After making its Reaction Fire attack(s), that DEFENDER must await further movement expenditure by the vehicle (or by its Personnel Escort; A11.51) before conducting other than Reaction Fire vs that unit. Reaction Fire vs an OVRing vehicle is resolved immediately after the resolution of that OVR.

The section in RED implies to me that when an OVR is declaried (and the MP are spent). Only (CC or nomal) Reaction Fire Attacks may be made (and only after the OVR is resolved). If the AFV spends more MP in the Hex. Then (and only then) can any unbroken units in the Hex would be allowed to make Non-Reaction Fire Attacks.

The confusion for me is that the OVR Flow chart gives the DEFENDING unit a chance to make a Non-Reaction Fire Attacks before the OVR.
So am I reading to much into the section in red or is there something else in the rule book that I missed.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

The confusion for me is that the OVR Flow chart gives the DEFENDING unit a chance to make a Non-Reaction Fire Attacks before the OVR.
So am I reading to much into the section in red or is there something else in the rule book that I missed.

D7.1:
"...nstead, the OVR is resolved on the IFT immediately after the MP expenditure [EXC: Bog DR, and defensive First Fire other than Reaction Fire (7.2), prompted by that MP expenditure (or by the MF expenditure of accompanying Infantry using Human Wave {A25.23} and Armored Assault {9.31}) are resolved first]."

The red part is not limited to units not being overrun.

 

[Pyth]

This --

The section in RED implies to me that when an OVR is declaried (and the MP are spent). Only (CC or nomal) Reaction Fire Attacks may be made (and only after the OVR is resolved)

-- is false...

I know this stuff because this was all very recently explained to me (by JRV and Brian W and Klas ) ...

It is confusing and your confusion is sounding extremely similar to the very recent confusion I had, so maybe I can help...

Here's the major issue -- get this straight and the rest should fall into place: DFF and Reaction Fire are different things! When the rules say something like: "after OVR is declared all reaction fire must wait until after the OVR has been resolved..." -- look over those rules carefully: nothing has been said about DFF! It really feels like something has been implied about DFF -- you could swear DFF has to wait until after OVR is resolved: but look again -- DFF has NOT been restricted, reaction fire has. Put the DFF response to the OVRing unit in a separate mental category from the Reaction fire response and all of a sudden the OVR flow chart isn't broken and the rules aren't contradicted.

 

[KenYoung]

D7.1:
"...nstead, the OVR is resolved on the IFT immediately after the MP expenditure [EXC: Bog DR, and defensive First Fire other than Reaction Fire (7.2), prompted by that MP expenditure (or by the MF expenditure of accompanying Infantry using Human Wave {A25.23} and Armored Assault {9.31}) are resolved first]."

The red part is not limited to units not being overrun.

Here's the major issue -- get this straight and the rest should fall into place: DFF and Reaction Fire are different things! When the rules say something like: "after OVR is declared all reaction fire must wait until after the OVR has been resolved..." -- look over those rules carefully: nothing has been said about DFF! It really feels like something has been implied about DFF -- you could swear DFF has to wait until after OVR is resolved: but look again -- DFF has NOT been restricted, reaction fire has. Put the DFF response to the OVRing unit in a separate mental category from the Reaction fire response and all of a sudden the OVR flow chart isn't broken and the rules aren't contradicted.

I agree that there is no restriction on DFF (on the MP to enter the Hex or the MP of the OVR) by units outside the OVR location.
Units in the location are restricted by

D7.2 REACTION FIRE: ... Except as stated otherwise, a DEFENDER may use Reaction Fire as often as it is able to use the various forms of First/Final Fire. After making its Reaction Fire attack(s), that DEFENDER must await further movement expenditure by the vehicle (or by its Personnel Escort; A11.51) before conducting other than Reaction Fire vs that unit.

Once the OVR is declared. D7.2 clearly limits units in the OVR location to only Reaction Fire Attacks until the AFV spends further MP. Yes unknown units in the Hex could drop concealment and DFF normally (against MP used to enter the Hex), but that is before the OVR is declared ( and any MP is spent on an OVR).

Forgive me if I'm not getting a simple concept. But I want to be sure that when I drive my Panther into a Hex to OVR a 666 with BAZ. That he will not get a LATW shot off first with a 66% chance of hitting my side/rear. I feel that everyone is saying "yes the target of an OVR can DFF normally vs. the AFV". Yet D7.2 tells me that it must survive the OVR first.
Not trying to be a trouble maker. I'm just trying to resolve how (I feel) the rule is worded, with what I am being told how it should be played.

 

[jrv]

D7.1 When a vehicle declares an OVR, may the DEFENDER target attack before the OVR is resolved? If yes, would that DEFENDER have to
use Reaction Fire?
A. Yes. No--it would be Reaction Fire only if conducted after the OVR resolution (see the last sentence of D7.2). [An93a; An95w; An96; Mw]

In your example, the Panther declares its OVR as it enters (assuming the Baz team is not concealed), but the BAZ may use regular DFF before the OVR is resolved. If the Panther is destroyed/immobilized, the OVR attack still takes place, but at half FP.

JR

 

[Pyth]

I agree that there is no restriction on DFF (on the MP to enter the Hex or the MP of the OVR) by units outside the OVR location.
Units in the location are restricted by
Once the OVR is declared. D7.2 clearly limits units in the OVR location to only Reaction Fire Attacks until the AFV spends further MP. Yes unknown units in the Hex could drop concealment and DFF normally (against MP used to enter the Hex), but that is before the OVR is declared ( and any MP is spent on an OVR).

Forgive me if I'm not getting a simple concept. But I want to be sure that when I drive my Panther into a Hex to OVR a 666 with BAZ. That he will not get a LATW shot off first with a 66% chance of hitting my side/rear. I feel that everyone is saying "yes the target of an OVR can DFF normally vs. the AFV". Yet D7.2 tells me that it must survive the OVR first.
Not trying to be a trouble maker. I'm just trying to resolve how (I feel) the rule is worded, with what I am being told how it should be played.

Here's what you quoted in red from D7.2 claiming it restricted the DFF to after the OVR. "After making its Reaction Fire attack(s), that DEFENDER must await further movement expenditure by the vehicle (or by its Personnel Escort; A11.51) before conducting other than Reaction Fire vs that unit."

I completely agree that the wording of that sentence suggests that the only attacks you ever had were Reaction Fire attacks. But it doesn't say it outright... and nowhere else is it said outright. Not D7.2, nor any rule, tells you directly that there is no DFF opportunity against the MPs spent entering the location to OVR -- because there is that opportunity. The OVR flowchart is very clear (much clearer than the RB) in showing that there is that DFF opportunity from in the OVR hex as well as from outside it against the MPs spent entering the hex and OVRing.

Consider this chain of events -- Vehicle spends MP entering location/declaring OVR >>> DFF against vehicle >>> OVR RESOLVES >>> REACTION FIRE >>>Vehicle is not subject to further attack this MPh until it spends another MP

In what way does the red text you quoted from D7.2 invalidate that chain? It doesn't.

So, the bottom line is: -- When you drive your panther into a hex to OVR a 6.6.6. with BAZ he is going to get that LATW shot off if he wants to... or he might prefer to let your OVR resolve in order to get a guaranteed shot at the rear armor -- but I wouldn't count on it.

 

[Pyth]

Oh and I don't think anyone yet has pointed out the (crucial imo) EXC at the bottom of D7.1 (*edit... of course Klas already put that up earlier in the thread. It bears re-reading)... that's the one place where DFF is specifically mentioned as resolving _before_ the OVR... it unfortunately does not explicitly say that this EXC pertains to both units inside the target hex as well as outside... but the flowchart (and Q&As) have made clear that it does apply to DFF from both inside and outside the OVR target hex.

 

[KenYoung]

I want to thank everyone for adding to this thread. It is making me look deeper into the rule book, finding other things I have been getting wrong. The rule book is our friend (but damn! it's hard to understand of sometimes). So we are all in agreement here. An OVR will not affect normal DFF attacks against the ATTACKER from outside the hex. Our issue is my stubborn instance that a (known) DEFENDER in the target location. Should not get a normal DFF shot, before the OVR is resolved.

I completely agree that the wording of that sentence suggests that the only attacks you ever had were Reaction Fire attacks. But it doesn't say it outright... and nowhere else is it said outright. Not D7.2, nor any rule, tells you directly that there is no DFF opportunity against the MPs spent entering the location to OVR -- because there is that opportunity.

Pyth, on this point I believe you are wrong. D7.2 clearly says "After making its Reaction Fire attack(s), that DEFENDER must await further movement expenditure by the vehicle (or by its Personnel Escort; A11.51) before conducting other than Reaction Fire vs that unit." If the AFV must declare the OVR as he enters the loction of a known enemy unit. Then the OVR must be resolved before any Reaction Fire from the target location (in RED). And if the AFV leaves the Hex with its next MP. Then there is no chance for a normal DFF Attack from that location.

Consider this chain of events -- Vehicle spends MP entering location/declaring OVR >>> DFF against vehicle >>> OVR RESOLVES >>> REACTION FIRE >>>Vehicle is not subject to further attack this MPh until it spends another MP

AFV declares OVR (spends MP).>>> Enters Hex (eats DFF from outside the Hex). Because of "C7.1 ...The OVR MP expenditure must be announced as a combined expenditure with that for entrance of the hex as the vehicle enters the OVR hex, unless that hex contains only unknown enemy units (A12.41)." (forgive me if I edited out an important point in this rule). >>>

At this point when the AFV enters the Hex an OVR is now in progress (being combined (to me) means that there is no seperate MP spent on entry, before the OVR is active, in which to DFF from with in the Hex normally). D7.2 restricts the target from making anything other than Reaction Fire [EXC. for C5.64 OVR PREVENTION: (which I believe is the only way that units in an OVR location can fire before the OVR is resolved)]

The OVR flowchart is very clear (much clearer than the RB) in showing that there is that DFF opportunity from in the OVR hex as well as from outside it against the MPs spent entering the hex and OVRing.

It is the difference, between the chart and the Rule Book that made me go :hmmm: "Hmmm" in the first place.

My contention is that D7.1 says that the entry MP and the OVR MP are combined. This will not give the DEFENDER the chance to normal DFF on a separate MP before the OVR is declared (different than what happens when it enters a location with unknown enemy units). Then D7.2 tells us that once a OVR starts, units in the target location are restricted to Reaction Fire [EXC. for C5.64 OVR PREVENTION]. I see no way that an in-hex unit can DFF till after the OVR.

 

[jrv]

I am unclear why the Q&A does not address your question. In the question the defender is the " the DEFENDER target", i.e. it is the target of a declared OVR. Per the Q&A, it may DFF before the OVR.

JR

 

[Pyth]

Pyth, on this point I believe you are wrong. D7.2 clearly says "After making its Reaction Fire attack(s), that DEFENDER must await further movement expenditure by the vehicle (or by its Personnel Escort; A11.51) before conducting other than Reaction Fire vs that unit."

Well, now we're both pointing at the same piece of text and I'm saying: "just read this it's self-explanatory" and you answer, "no you read it -- it's self-explanatory!" lol.

Maybe it's not so self-explanatory after all... here's what I think that piece of D7.2 says (translating from the RB's unique house-style):

After making reaction fire attack against the OVRing vehicle, the DEFENDER may A) conduct further reaction fire attacks as available or B) await more movement from the ATTACKER.

That's what I think it says anyway.... (nothing about in-hex vs. outside target hex -- nothing about DFF at all... the rule concerns AFTER reaction fire, so DFF has come and gone.)

 

[KenYoung]

I am unclear why the Q&A does not address your question. In the question the defender is the " the DEFENDER target", i.e. it is the target of a declared OVR. Per the Q&A, it may DFF before the OVR.

JR

Sorry JRV for not replying sooner, but I was trying to find where you found the Q&A (I never saw it before you posted it).
I do not agree with the Q&A (because the rules do not support it).

The reason is, I'll repeat again.
[D7.1] vs. known enemy units. The vehicular must combine the entry MP with the OVR MP. When the vehicular enters the Hex, the OVR has started. No chance to DFF on a MP before the OVR, so now the (in-Hex) DEFENDER is restricked by D7.2

[D7.2...Except as stated otherwise, a DEFENDER may use Reaction Fire as often as it is able to use the various forms of First/Final Fire. After making its Reaction Fire attack(s), that DEFENDER must await further movement expenditure by the vehicle (or by its Personnel Escort; A11.51) before conducting other than Reaction Fire vs that unit.]

This clearly tells me that non-Reaction Fire Attacks must wait till the vehicular spends more MP after the OVR (which includes DFF).

Again, I do not agree with it. But I will bow before the wisdom of others and play it that way.
And thank you for your time and input.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Sorry JRV for not replying sooner, but I was trying to find where you found the Q&A (I never saw it before you posted it).
I do not agree with the Q&A (because the rules do not support it).

It is an official Q&A and since the wording in the rules didn't change (at least not what I could see) between the 1st and 2nd edtion, I would assume that MMP did not intend to change what the Q&A is saying.

[D7.1] vs. known enemy units. The vehicular must combine the entry MP with the OVR MP. When the vehicular enters the Hex, the OVR has started. No chance to DFF on a MP before the OVR, so now the (in-Hex) DEFENDER is restricked by D7.2

Per D7.1 DFF is resolved before the actual OVR is resolved.
"...the OVR is resolved on the IFT immediately after the MP expenditure [EXC: Bog DR, and defensive First Fire other than Reaction Fire (7.2),..."

[D7.2...Except as stated otherwise, a DEFENDER may use Reaction Fire as often as it is able to use the various forms of First/Final Fire. After making its Reaction Fire attack(s), that DEFENDER must await further movement expenditure by the vehicle (or by its Personnel Escort; A11.51) before conducting other than Reaction Fire vs that unit.]

This clearly tells me that non-Reaction Fire Attacks must wait till the vehicular spends more MP after the OVR (which includes DFF).

IMO, this is just saying that if you want to make non-RF attacks after the OVR is resolved, you can't do that on the entry+OVR MP expenditure. I do not see that the red text limits what the OVR targets can before the OVR is resolved.

 

[mgmasl]

IMO it refers to new attacks AFTER the Reaction-Fire attack, that is made AFTER D1F attacks based on the OVR+Entry MP cost.

I don't see where is the problem

 

[rcarter]

IMO it refers to new attacks AFTER the Reaction-Fire attack, that is made AFTER D1F attacks based on the OVR+Entry MP cost.

I don't see where is the problem

i think Ken is arguing that

a) 7.1 states that the MP for entry and OVR are expended simultaneously and
b) it states that the OVR is executed immediately after that expenditure

and

c) 7.2 has that line in it about "other than reaction fire ..."

I agree though that the EXC in 7.1 implies that Def Fire can be executed against the MP's expended. Just like you can Def fire against a unit moving into a woods hex on the first MF and/or the second MF even though they are both expended simultaneously.

I think that the idea of simultaneous mvt expenditure and immediate execution just mean that once the OVR is declared it will happen regardless. That you can't kill the tank on entry and negate the OVR once OVR is declared. It's just that the FP will 1/2'd if it is killed, etc.

I think that if the unit was unable to fire until after the OVR would also mean that the rules about how Passengers/Riders pinning does not change the OVR attack would only make sense for fire from outside the hex.

I agree, though, that they could have included an example of Def Fire against an OVR'ing AFV to make it clear how Reaction fire and Def fire interact. Since we all take the OVR flowchart as an extension of the rules, it may not be necessary anymore.

Now the question might be, can units fire on the unit just based on the entry MP expended or also on the OVR MP expended. For example, when an AT gun outside the hex keeps rof?

Rick