MASL (Macro ASL) - a new style of ASL Module

[ASRomafan]

I just downloaded the PDF AAR's and look forward to reading those.

Don, it seems to me that the AAR is not intended to be an introduction but a AAR of the system 'in action'. I would suppose this is a recent one, they have been working on this for 20 years it seems, perhaps they have long progressed from a (relatively) simple modelling of basic East Front ASL combat and this AAR would appear to show the possibility of the system. Showing how the system handles such complex operations at this macro ASL level.

Whether by chance or by design. One could say posting this, as opposed to simpler action, might be the best way to stimulate interest. What better way perhaps to stimulate interest, to show what the system can do in doing Airborne drops, to show what the basics can lead you up to playing.

 

[dlazov]

Okay fair enough, more pics!

Oh the time now is 19:41 ... lol

OH and now the time is 19:42 .. lol

sorry too funny...

EDIT:

Now the time is 19:43

And now the time is 19:44

LOL ...

Having too much fun...

The time now is 19:45

 

[Darrell Andersen]

As long as at some point I get to machine gun Lt. Hill as he tries to cross the street, I am all for it.

 

[skarper]

This does look very interesting.

How is combat resolved if you don't have time or interest to set up and play an ASL style scenario. If there is a parallel system is it equivalent? This was a problem I ran into when trying to produce an operational level game to work with miniatures on the tabletop.

 

[Paul Chicoine]

This does look very interesting.

How is combat resolved if you don't have time or interest to set up and play an ASL style scenario. If there is a parallel system is it equivalent? This was a problem I ran into when trying to produce an operational level game to work with miniatures on the tabletop.

MASL does not require ASL or any knowledge of it. The battles can be resolved on either the CRT table or played as ASL scenarios. This way as a dual-blind multiplayer game the system appeals to those who only want to play the MASL level, and those who only want to play the resultant limited intelligence scenarios, and those who want to involved on both sides. The game fosters team play, so that at the MASL level you accomplish the big picture, but puts realistic objectives for the ASL player to achieve his MASL commanders overall goals. The scenarios have no victory conditions other than what your commanding officer needs you to accomplish, as it is in real life. The big difference is that there is no scenario card to study to death and it may be unclear what you will be running into, is he entrenched with wire and mines? Does he have guns? What type and how many? What size unit am I about to engage? Does he have reinforcements that can enter, or air support? How many OBA modules can he bring to bear, and of what caliber? So the decisions you need to make for a scenario are much much the same the DRM modifiers on the CRT, each side secretly adds up their modifiers and then they are subtracted from each other of the final DRM, never revealing how you got the sum. Of course the game plays much faster using the CRT than farming out scenarios and waiting for their results. But the richness of the game through ASL tells a story like no other. As a multiplayer tactical game, this is a blast to play, which is why I stuck with it from the 80's.

 

[skarper]

Sounds intriguing. Have you considered setting up a blog or website to publicize it? This way you can post pictures of maps and the basic rules.

I'm very curious about the CRT and the possible results and how this plays into ASL losses. ASL losses are also rather heavy with the losing side often wiped out and 2-3 squads in the VC building...I gather you have no VC conditions so when one side understands they are unable to achieve their objectives without undue losses they will withdraw, but I still think more units may be lost than is realistic. I would I think tend to have a rule to resurrect 50% of all MMC losses and 100% of Leader losses. Maybe I'd make the 'zombie' MMC down a grade [Elite > 1st line etc] and you'd have to reroll for your leaders with an adverse drm. 100% of prisoners would obviously be gone - though leader would be replaced.

I'm also very keen to see the maps you've produced.

I can draw maps that will fit into VASSAL [any PNG file will fit] and have a bit of free time, so could maybe help with that side. I don't play ASL - I've written my own system that essentially does the same thing - but your MASL would probably mesh with my system just as well as with ASL - from what you say. Aslo - VASSAL is very easy to use now and building modules is a synch. Even if not a programmer/computer freak just jump in.

BTW - MASL is already used by the MODERN ASL group - which is very quiet now.

 

[Paul Chicoine]

MASL (Macro-ASL) has been around since the early 1980's, so it doesn't surprise me that someone else later also came up with the name. No big deal, people will figure it out.

If you play the scenarios like an ASL scenario card you can end up with bloodbaths. Whereas, MASL is rich in tactical choices that influence how you play the resultant scenarios. Once you start playing like a 'MASL commander', then the total disregard of your troops and fighting to the death in the last few scenario turns tends to be minimized. When both opposing MASL commanders deem that a specific hex (say a cornerstone of a defensive line) must be held or taken, then they will instruct their ASL commanders with specific scenario objectives, such as to push the issue and wipe the enemy out at all costs. Can't do this sledgehammer often (perhaps Russians can), so you tend to look for more elegant solutions. MASL is more like a fight with rapiers than with sledgehammers. The system is fluid, so it allows you to use tactical finesse. Many MASL scenarios tend to turn into running battles (delaying actions, blocking actions, fighting withdrawals) when one side is outgunned and outnumbered. Therefore losses are very low. Keep in mind that your playing on 3 ASL boards square, that's a lot of room to maneuver, whereas a scenario cards typically have a lot less battle space room.

 

[skarper]

Thanks Paul. Still looking forward to hearing more about the CRT and mechanics. I've also started to rough out my own ideas for a similar scale system just to see where it leads. It's holiday season here so I have time to spare.

How do you handle reconnaissance? The pdfs mention aerial recce. What about ground recce? You also mention logistics which is totally absent from ASL (barring a few SSRs for low ammo here and there.) How are they handled?

Too many many questions, I know!

 

[Paul Chicoine]

I'm not sure I'm all that interested in helping a competitive effort. The MASL system is done, it just needs to be produced. If too many similar systems evolve, it will just dilute the overall interest in the gaming community. I've been working on this system since the early 80's and have made several modules and have been through several play tests. I'm now ready for production. If MASL goes to production, many additional historical modules could then be produced leveraging the system. I see any other effort as divergence and misdirection of the limited resources the gaming community has. On the other hand I can't divulge too much at this time for IP (Intellectual Property) rights concerns.

My main goal by posting this was to determine if there was interest in the community and whether this would be accepted as a commercially available product. So far this limited marketing foray has shown that people have been looking for a system that extends the ASL experience. But with the Wargaming Industry's limited resources and a relatively small customer-base, the wargaming industry really needs a kick-a$$ system that has all this worked out, is fun to play and will appeal to both ASL and non-ASL players alike. By design, this is the niche market that MASL was designed for. Plus, by design, it offers a full set of capabilities I have not seen in any game system… and I've been wargaming since the 70's.

 

[jbru362]

I'd buy it. I like bigger

 

[skarper]

Fair enough Paul. I hope you find a way to get it published. I think the interest is there. If you mean to make it available commercially you are quite right to keep the details under your hat.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I would recommend not jumping to conclusions as my guess is that you haven't seen a game like this yet, its out-of-the-box. MASL doesn't need ASL to play it, but I designed it specifically so I could play limited intelligence fog of war scenarios. The advantage for MMP, should they ever decide to publish any module, is that the game sells into two markets (a) gamers in general and (b) those that want to use it in conjunction with ASL. You can resolve the combats either (a) on the MASL CRT or (b) through ASL scenarios. Either way works. So if you want to play an incredibly fast combat system where units gracefully degrade, feel free to roll on the CRT. But if your looking for kick-a$$ scenarios then play it as intended with ASL.

Found this thread while searching for another topic.

Interesting ideas. Over 10 years ago I playtested/scenario designed for a macro game for another tactical game system akin to ASL - the Combat Mission computer game. (We tended to use the term "operational layer" rather than macro game.) It was the same concept - you had regiment sized forces on a large map, maneuvered them in the operational layer, then resolved the fights one of two ways - either in the macro game/operationaly layer, or you generated a scenario in the tactical game and played it out.

This concept seems to be the Holy Grail. There were a few manual systems that did this for Combat Mission (by which I mean the operational layer was really just maps and spreadsheets overseen by a Game Master), but nothing official.

The concept is not original, but I have to believe getting something like this in print would be a first. Any news in the last five years?

Suggesting play-testing and VASSAL-ization is premature 'cause no one here understands it well enough to even know if they're interested.

The concept seems simple enough, if it is the same as CM:C. The danger of CM:C was that the fellow proposing it did so just before the engine of the new tactical game changed, and pretty much made the project obsolete before the coders (who also changed, apparently) could integrate the two layers. More here for anyone interested: https://videogamegeek.com/thread/724654/tragic-tale-combat-mission-campaigns

I would love to hear that this has moved forward.

 

[Carln0130]

Paul is very much alive and kicking and so is his idea. I will let him know you were asking about it. He can address progress on it far better than I.

 

[CTKnudsen]

Hey I am also interested and would be willing to do what work I could on it. I have been working on a similar concept based around an in-development computer game called Theater of Operations, which is intended to provide an operational layer for just about any resolution system. I have drafted a set of rules for transfer to ASL, which I would be more than happy to share if anyone is interested.

I would be very interested to see the documents Paul posted, as they did not survive the forum transfer. While I am coming to appreciate scenario play more and more, for me campaign games are the best - I just love the "longitudinal gaming", as Mark Pitcavage has described it.

 

[Carln0130]

I spoke with Paul and hopefully he can find the time to get on shortly. The good news is that things have progressed a great deal with this project in just the last couple of years, Paul said. I hope he gets on to bring you guys up to speed.

 

[Ken Guerin]

Co-designer/developer of MASL chiming in.

First, a little background by way of introduction as I just joined the forum:

I've been playing wargames since purchasing War At Sea back in *cough* 1980, though chess was my first wargame, taught to me by my father when I was 4 years old. I've been playing Squad Leader and ASL since '83 or so, but not nearly as much as I suspect most of the folks here play.

I met Paul many, many years ago when we were employed by the same company. Once he showed me his MASL idea, I was hooked. However, our career paths took us in separate directions until the Internet brought us back together again.

For the past 2-3 years now, I've been helping Paul co-develop/co-design his game to bring it to the table. To that end, we now have a set of assembly line production tools that allow us to convert OOBs, written in an ASL TO&E style, to counter graphics, including individual PNG counters for VASSAL inclusion and PDF counter sheets for when it can/will hit the table.

Two playtests are in flight, including one between Paul and myself which is focused on player aids and rules/charts clarity and less on gamesmanship, though we can't help ourselves; winning is more fun than losing.

We have four modules in various stages of production: Advance to the Moselle, Operation Market Garden : Nijmegen, Utah Beach, Scheldt Estuary. While our focus has been on the Western Front, there is nothing in the rules that prevents us from making modules for the other theaters.

Our public debut of the game will be at the Yankee ASL Nor'easter Tournament in Boxborough, MA at the end of March. To that end, we're currently polishing our materials for the demo and grand unveiling.



In the meantime, here's a sample counter snipped off the PDF counter sheet for the OMG-N module. Counter shows the usual attack/defense strengths, unit type (armor/Panther), unit organizational size, step size (2 step diamonds), armor/AT effects and the divisional patch emblem.

Combat and armor/AT strengths are based on formulas which operate on data gleaned from the ASL Chapter H information and other ASL charts. (Note: KG-R is an abbreviation for Kampfgruppe Reinhold. Counter and OOB is not final.)

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Thanks for posting, Ken. Good luck with it.

 

[ZenRiver]

Yes good luck with it as well. I did similar with Flags of Wars, but the push back was so great there was little point to continue setting that up for ASL. Still it is worth it to see a pet project materialize into something usable.

Cheers.