LOS into a depression from a higher level.

John Fedoriw

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Hi gents,

My opponent and I have a disagreement. Can the unit in U4 see into W3?

Capture.JPG

I cite:
A6.3 DEPRESSIONS: Certain terrain types are defined as being relatively narrow slits carved into the surface below ground level. Although they present no obstacle to LOS between units at or above ground level, units IN Depressions are often out of LOS of even relatively nearby higher level units. A unit must be at least one level higher for every hex of range to units IN a Depression to have a LOS to them [EXC: Units with a clear LOS between them through other continuous Depression hexsides (exclusive of vertices) need not count those intervening Depression hexes in determining the necessary elevation advantage]. A unit in a ground level hex always has a LOS INTO an adjacent level -1 Depression hex, but a unit two hexes away must be at level 1 or higher to have a LOS INTO that hex, and a unit three hexes away must be at level 2 or higher...

...and maintain that he can.

My friend cites:
B10.23 BLIND HEXES: A lower level non-cliff Crest Line creates a Blind Hex to a higher level viewer only if that Crest Line is at least five hexes away from that viewer and the next hex along his LOS has a lower elevation than that of the Crest Line hex [EXC: If the elevation level difference caused by that Crest Line and the next hex along the LOS is ≥ two, at least one Blind Hex is created (unless adjacent) even if within five hexes of the higher level firing hex]. One Blind Hex is created for each elevation level difference caused by that Crest Line. In summary, the nominal effect of a one-elevation change Crest Line to a higher level viewer is to create no Blind Hexes at a range of 1-4, one Blind Hex at a range of 5-9, two Blind Hexes at a range of 10-14, three at a range of 15-19, etc. The Blind Hexes created by these Crest Lines can be reduced to a minimum of zero by A6.42 or increased by A6.43.

... and thinks he cannot because the level difference is 2. It's confusing. Who is right?

Thanks,
John
 

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ScottRomanowski

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Good question! I dove into the rules, "Base Level" in the Index, both sections B19 and A6, and B20.9 Crest Status, and I checked the Q&A. (I did not search the Perry Sez thread here because the forum software won't let me search for "B19" or "A6.3" because they are too short!!) I fear your opponent may be correct. The gully isn't a separate Location in the hex, the rules talk about the hex being one level lower. Crest status doesn't create a separate Location either. Hex W3 is at level -1. I think this conclusion is reinforced by B19.31 which says something to the effect of 'despite the hex being at level -1, terrain in parts of the hex are at level 0'. So W3 is a Blind Hex per B10.23.
 

klasmalmstrom

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This has been asked multiple times, and I believe there's been Q&A sent in as well....there's an EX at the end of Section B9 that says one thing, but some believe that EX is in error.
 

John Fedoriw

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This has been asked multiple times, and I believe there's been Q&A sent in as well....there's an EX at the end of Section B9 that says one thing, but some believe that EX is in error.
Sorry I should have searched better before posting. Every time I do I never seem to find what I need though so I guess I am getting lazy.

Thanks gents.
 

klasmalmstrom

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Sorry I should have searched better before posting. Every time I do I never seem to find what I need though so I guess I am getting lazy.
No problem - my post wasn't meant to imply your post was unnecessary - my bad if it came across like that.

The GS search function isn't all that good. Not sure those Q&A have been answered yet.
 

ScottRomanowski

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Who besides @klasmalmstrom would have thought to look for the answer to a question involving hills and gullies in the rules for walls and hedges?
some believe that EX is in error
I can see how easy it would be to miss the reference to V7 there, although they caught entrenched in X5. But still B10.23, as the higher numbered rule, would prevail in that contradiction.
 
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bendizoid

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Hi gents,

My opponent and I have a disagreement. Can the unit in U4 see into W3?

Capture.JPG

I cite:
A6.3 DEPRESSIONS: Certain terrain types are defined as being relatively narrow slits carved into the surface below ground level. Although they present no obstacle to LOS between units at or above ground level, units IN Depressions are often out of LOS of even relatively nearby higher level units. A unit must be at least one level higher for every hex of range to units IN a Depression to have a LOS to them [EXC: Units with a clear LOS between them through other continuous Depression hexsides (exclusive of vertices) need not count those intervening Depression hexes in determining the necessary elevation advantage]. A unit in a ground level hex always has a LOS INTO an adjacent level -1 Depression hex, but a unit two hexes away must be at level 1 or higher to have a LOS INTO that hex, and a unit three hexes away must be at level 2 or higher...

...and maintain that he can.

My friend cites:
B10.23 BLIND HEXES: A lower level non-cliff Crest Line creates a Blind Hex to a higher level viewer only if that Crest Line is at least five hexes away from that viewer and the next hex along his LOS has a lower elevation than that of the Crest Line hex [EXC: If the elevation level difference caused by that Crest Line and the next hex along the LOS is ≥ two, at least one Blind Hex is created (unless adjacent) even if within five hexes of the higher level firing hex]. One Blind Hex is created for each elevation level difference caused by that Crest Line. In summary, the nominal effect of a one-elevation change Crest Line to a higher level viewer is to create no Blind Hexes at a range of 1-4, one Blind Hex at a range of 5-9, two Blind Hexes at a range of 10-14, three at a range of 15-19, etc. The Blind Hexes created by these Crest Lines can be reduced to a minimum of zero by A6.42 or increased by A6.43.

... and thinks he cannot because the level difference is 2. It's confusing. Who is right?

Thanks,
John
Continuous slope rules apply, therefore, (unless at crest status) they are in a gully and out of LOS.

Strange as it may seem, if they were one hex back then the same continuous slope rules would apply (if the woods are erased) allowing a clear LOS into the gully.
 

klasmalmstrom

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I can see how easy it would be to miss the reference to V7 there, although they caught entrenched in X5. But still B10.23, as the higher numbered rule, would prevail in that contradiction.
IIRC, one position was that the gully was not part of the Crest Line - "caused by that Crest Line". But I really don't recall all the postions/arguments/positions.
 

nekengren2

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This has been asked multiple times, and I believe there's been Q&A sent in as well....there's an EX at the end of Section B9 that says one thing, but some believe that EX is in error.
My take...........

That example in 9.61 is about a unit in Crest Status with adjacent crest line and the higher levels nearby. Valid LOS doesn't involve any of the B10.23 BLIND HEXES stuff. The example unit is only one level lower than the adjacent Crest line.

Being IN THE GULLY for 9.61 or Johns original example makes a unit 2 levels lower than the adjacent crest line. So yes, in this case the B10.23 BLIND HEXES becomes applicable. Basically a gully adjacent to a crest line hex invokes B10.23 BLIND HEXES for LOS from higher levels through that crest into the gully bottom.
 

Wayne

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Here's the B9.61 EX graphic:
22528
Per B10.23, there's no V7<->V5 LOS re a unit IN the V5 Gully.

Per the B9.61 EX text, a unit IN V5 would have a LOS to [V7 implied].

So, given higher-numbered rule B10.23, there is in the B9.61 EX text an uncorrected error.
Full_B9.61_EX_text said:
EX: The 4-6-7 in 25W4, the 4-3-6 in W5, and the Crest-status 4-6-8 in V5 all have a LOS across one or more wall hexsides/hexspines to the following hill hexes: U7, V6, V7, W6, W7, W8, X5, X6 and X7 (although they could see entrenched units in V6/W6/ X5 only if adjacent to them). A unit IN V5 would have a LOS to all those same hexes [EXC: not to any entrenched unit(s) in X5]. The 4-6-7 also has a LOS to the Crest level of Y7. The 4-3-6 also has a LOS to Y5. In no case could any of these units claim wall TEM vs an attack coming from any of these in LOS hill hexes.
 

Jwil2020

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The GS search function isn't all that good
A friend of mine showed me that using Google is actually a faster way to find relevant threads on GS. Simply type in your search items and end with "Gamesquad". Not sure if it produces better search results, but it seems to work faster than going thru the GS search engine and coming up empty. But YMMV.
 

Stewart

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Here's the B9.61 EX graphic:
View attachment 22528
Per B10.23, there's no V7<->V5 LOS re a unit IN the V5 Gully.

Per the B9.61 EX text, a unit IN V5 would have a LOS to [V7 implied].

So, given higher-numbered rule B10.23, there is in the B9.61 EX text an uncorrected error.
Pretty sure the B9.61 EX text wrt to unit IN V5 is referencing the () Entrenched units with the exception of X5.
 
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