Huertgen Forest

[Vic Provost]

Thanks for the plug, Vic. But what I'm more interested in is to do some geoboards/OLs with a Huertgen theme which would allow designers (such as yourself) to prepare a variety of Huertgen related scenarios.
I think a starting place could be to piggyback on existing boards (ie. 73), as well as future other boards or overlays, to prepare something like an AP for MMP - Huertgen Forest themed.

So, my little memo here is mainly to enlist support - to get scenario designers cranked up to do some research and development!

When we get the boards I'm sure something will get designed on them, always looking for new and interesting ones. Heurtgen Forest was a very nasty fight and I'm sure we have not covered all of it in ASL. Getting any kind of support (AFVs, Guns, etc) in there to help the infantry had to be a problem much of the time. I'll look forward to what you come up with.

 

[Hutch]

Reading about the Admin Box, Burma 1944, Sangshak, Imphal and Kohima at the moment. Going to shift to the Forest next.

 

[DonWPetros]

I'm up for doing the boards, but will likely hold for now and wait some qualified scenario guys join in... I've found that collaboration is best here.

 

[FrankH.]

What would interest me is a collection of boards with only one road going from edge to edge (lengthways) with no side roads, just one long and winding roadway leading towards victory, one unique section at a time.

Or even boards with not a single complete road. Just paths, etc.

 

[Blaze]

Smells like a Historical Study maybe? A mix of Geoboards and a historical map is my favorite type of packages.

 

[Vic Provost]

Or even boards with not a single complete road. Just paths, etc.

Yes PTO for sure, (& Heurtgen, etc in the ETO) with Burma, the Philippines and New Guinea where you should have plenty of use for a board like that.

 

[DonWPetros]

Yep. Preparing some boards or OLs to both represent Huertgen, but also be versatile enough to use for PTO, might work.

Take a look at Board 73. SSR: Orchards are Woods (implying that the green blotches are Woods LOS obstacles). OLs to cover the Grain. More OLs to be more representative of a denser terrain. Add a whole new board(s) using Orchard terrain, irregular levels (-1 and +1), some Gullies, and you might have something.

 

[FrankH.]

I looked at board 39 and said this is a great board, I know that country and I've been on hills like that. If somebody had said "Why are we here on this hill?", it would soon become obvious because except for a narrow strip of beach the whole bloody island looked like board 39.

Anyone thought of an ocean overlay for board 39 that covers most if not all of the roads, though perhaps adding a single printed small pier, and/or sand bar or reef butting out?

Or, an ETO forest overlay for same board that again covers most of the roads, replacing them with more forests, paths, hills, a stream, maybe a very small village and/or with one side of a river, lengthwise?

 

[PresterJohn]

Just to be clear, I was saying that the whole island was a series of rough jungle covered hills. By all means create a pier and small town like in that scenario in Albania J195. And once you say PTO, you have to imagine all the roads are gone anyway.

 

[jfardette]

CH and BFP (and others) have a bunch of historical scenarios around it.

I'm generally not a shill for CH, but I like map porn and their combined Hüertgen Hell-Objective Schmidt map is kind of crazy. I've not played any scenarios from either module tho.

Advanced Squad Leader - ASL Map Spotlight: The Battle of the Hürtgen Forest

From Sep 19 to Dec 16, 1944 a long, bloody, drawn-out battle raged through the rugged terrain of the Hürtgen Forest.

asl-players.net

That is one awesome board, I'd love to play some scenarios on it.

 

[wrongway149]

I'm up for doing the boards, but will likely hold for now and wait some qualified scenario guys join in... I've found that collaboration is best here.

Wanna do as Deluxe maps?

 

[GeorgeBates]

The Huertgen terrain is unique I think, based on what I've read. 'Managed forest' - with often much space in between Woods. Lots of irregularity. Dense, but not exactly like our boards 5 and 52 where there's no LOS at all between obstacles. Unique terrain - combined with standard geoboards.

Use light woods, with Infantry MF cost reduced to 1.5

 

[DonWPetros]

Wanna do as Deluxe maps?

Sure! Would prefer covering more ground with standard boards, but I'm up for it if you are, Pete

 

[DonWPetros]

Use light woods, with Infantry MF cost reduced to 1.5

Yea, could use that SSR for the existing Woods boards I guess. But I'd like to see a sort of 'hide and seek' or maybe better 'sneak-shot hell' LOS using actual green terrain images. Looking at Huertgen photos, it looks like you could sometimes see for great distance (ie. down an Orchard row), or only for a short distance (ie. not down an Orchard row) which might be an interesting battlefield.

 

[Tesgora]

One recurrent aspect in accounts of fighting in the Huertgen Forest was the increased effect of indirect fire caused by the tree cover. You wouldn’t get that with orchard, but you would get it with light woods or the pine woods rule of Kampfgruppe Peiper. Indirect fire gets a -1 TEM in woods. The woods rule also brings into play the prepared fire zone rule. The Germans had many prepared positions and must have had prepared fire zones in the field of fire of their bunkers. Overall, I find the woods terrain and its existing variants superior to the orchard terrain to depict the terrain in that area.

 

[FrankH.]

With that map (whether or not it is used, and/or if other maps are used), and these recent comments, I am reminded of the earlier "Cat and Mouse" system of ASL scenarios covering Anzio.

 

[DonWPetros]

One recurrent aspect in accounts of fighting in the Huertgen Forest was the increased effect of indirect fire caused by the tree cover. You wouldn’t get that with orchard, but you would get it with light woods or the pine woods rule of Kampfgruppe Peiper. Indirect fire gets a -1 TEM in woods. The woods rule also brings into play the prepared fire zone rule. The Germans had many prepared positions and must have had prepared fire zones in the field of fire of their bunkers. Overall, I find the woods terrain and its existing variants superior to the orchard terrain to depict the terrain in that area.

The use of Orchards wouldn't extend to their lack of -1 TEM as with Woods. An SSR would be something like this: 'All Orchard hexes should be treated like Woods in all respects. The Green terrain outlines in Orchard hexes are treated like Woods terrain outlines'. Simple.

 

[Vic Provost]

The use of Orchards wouldn't extend to their lack of -1 TEM as with Woods. An SSR would be something like this: 'All Orchard hexes should be treated like Woods in all respects. The Green terrain outlines in Orchard hexes are treated like Woods terrain outlines'. Simple.

,
I like that SSR, so the Orchard artwork is the trees, just enough for maybe a 2 or 3 squads and anyone else should be in open ground is my thinking, you need a set limit of how much that few woods in a hex can provide cover for in squad equivalents, with 4 little pieces of woods in each hex, might be just enough to hide a gun crew, it's gun and provide cover for a squad. 2 squad limit for the cover, anyone over 2 squads is in open ground, at least that is my reality argument.
OR, just make orchards as light woods/jungle in an SSR, affects the whole hex and don't worry about it. We need a couple more wooded boards to portray what you are getting at but I would only SSR Orchards to something else ONLY IF that is your last option. My 27 years of publishing have taught me to not make too much of terrain SSR changes, players hate those and it gets worse the more verbiage you have in an SSR. Just keep that in mind, I've had several subscribers say they won't play scenarios with many Terrain changes and I know why. Many players forget what the changes were in the heat of the game. Good luck whatever you decide.

 

[DonWPetros]

,
I like that SSR, so the Orchard artwork is the trees, just enough for maybe a 2 or 3 squads and anyone else should be in open ground is my thinking, you need a set limit of how much that few woods in a hex can provide cover for in squad equivalents, with 4 little pieces of woods in each hex, might be just enough to hide a gun crew, it's gun and provide cover for a squad. 2 squad limit for the cover, anyone over 2 squads is in open ground, at least that is my reality argument.
OR, just make orchards as light woods/jungle in an SSR, affects the whole hex and don't worry about it. We need a couple more wooded boards to portray what you are getting at but I would only SSR Orchards to something else ONLY IF that is your last option. My 27 years of publishing have taught me to not make too much of terrain SSR changes, players hate those and it gets worse the more verbiage you have in an SSR. Just keep that in mind, I've had several subscribers say they won't play scenarios with many Terrain changes and I know why. Many players forget what the changes were in the heat of the game. Good luck whatever you decide.

Interesting idea - 'limited cover'. While you can always stack 3 squads per hex regardless of TEM, how protective that terrain is may be something to limit via SSR. OR, as you say, simply make it Light Woods. Of the two, the second idea is simplest, and due to that I'd go with your publishing/PT experience here. Keeping the Orchard green blotches as obstacles as mentioned above, would be used, and I don't think that would become a problem too complicated to cause a turn off.

 

[Vic Provost]

Interesting idea - 'limited cover'. While you can always stack 3 squads per hex regardless of TEM, how protective that terrain is may be something to limit via SSR. OR, as you say, simply make it Light Woods. Of the two, the second idea is simplest, and due to that I'd go with your publishing/PT experience here. Keeping the Orchard green blotches as hidrances as mentioned above, would be used, and I don't think that would become a problem too complicated to cause a turn off.

Sounds good Don, it will be interesting as to what you settle on. All I know is the boards, I'm sure, will be fine, we just need scenarios worthy of that battle and your efforts.