STAVKA
Elder Member
Vehicles can remain in Motion if the hex they wish to enter is not feasible. They can exclude some options, i.e. hexes they do not wish to enter. You can argue that these are bad rules, but they are the rules we have now
The ultimate arbiter doesn't agree with the way you interpret feasible. Even on the post you referenced, the person who replied said that's one way to look at it. Fortunately, it isn't the only or last way. Hope you are well. -- jimVehicles can remain in Motion if the hex they wish to enter is not feasible. They can exclude some options, i.e. hexes they do not wish to enter. You can argue that these are bad rules, but they are the rules we have now
Wow, talk about stepping into the Way-Back Machine..It's a good article but I take some exception with it. Bruce's point about "taking the first shot of the engagement" is critical but I think his definition of "first shot" as one which places acquisition is dangerous.
If you continue down in the thread, you'll see I said this:The article is a bit dated. There have been new .. "interpretations" .. of some rules, and far more game play in the community. If the article were written today, there may be several different subtle points.
I accepted that it had been a long time since I read it and said the point was the lesson I took, not necessarily the only lesson in the article. -- jimIt has been a long time since I read it. I may have to dig out my PDF copies and read it again. I recall the lesson I took was "get acqs" then I watched Fort/Chaney tear apart my AFV's with BFF shots and thought to myself, I am missing something and started looking at the math. It is much closer than I originally thought, especially when the guy shooting back has to change TCA and is BU. -- jim
I have considered writing a new one, but I don't think I could do better than the original. As I said, my only quibble can be summed up in less than a paragraph and (given I still have't re-read it) may already be in the article -- jimNo worries. I didn't take your comments as a criticism at all. I didn't mean to make my reply a counter-point as such.
After all this time, it's fair to review some of the article's assertions. I considered updating the article when it was reprinted in OotA, but they wanted a straight reprint, which is understandable given the OotA concept.
All excellent points...SD6 or less can lead to heartache,... even SD7 is just a touch over 50% odds of success. Be careful
Nice! I had hopes this thread would continue as there have been some great tips and tactics put forth.3) A tank engine is the most important weapon on a tank, use it
- Assault guns are not tanks, they do not have a turret, and most of the time, have lousy mg support. Do not use them like a tank, they are best used to support an infantry assault, keep them behind the infantry line, and keep a squad or two close by for support.
- German tank destroyers, are like assault guns, but hunt other tanks. They also do not have turrets, and lousy mg support. To use these find a good hull down position with a excellent field of fire. Also mentally locate alternative hull down locations to move to. I usually try to find at least two more locations, these will prevent flanking and allow for shoot and scoot. Keep your TD mobile, remember even a mortar can knock out a tank.
4) Tigers are rolling walls of steel....but vulnerable to infantry, even a Russian ATR can knock a track off, or a molotov will turn it into expensive oven to cook people. Keep infantry nearby. I do not use tigers in an assault I place them on a hill with the best LOS. That 88mm will kill anything so use it. The Elephant is the best TD around, use it a such, never assault infantry, unless you want to set up a pillbox with a shitty CA.
5) Medium tanks are the workhorses, use them to do the grunt work. They have great mg support, are fast and can relocate quickly. Still be careful on the assault being BU makes them vulnerable to infantry, I find that half tracked infantry make the best support. Number one rule: engines are your most important tool, you need them, a medium tank cannot duel with heavy tanks in a frontal engagement, so use your terrain and your movement. Also make sure that you can get out of trouble as quickly as you get into it. And do not forget that sometimes it is better to advance in the opposite direction to avoid a bad engagement.
"The tracks can be taken off"5) The BT tanks, are fast light and carry the 45L... also the tracks can be taken off to improve road movement. Ever consider using them to move to your opponents rear areas......What a surprise to your opponent when your BT's use roads and move farther than they expected. Use their mobility to the max, a platoon of light tanks to your rear could surprise you.
This is not covered by ASL rules, and it wouldn't help, because CE tracked vehicles already are as fast as wheeled ones on roads."The tracks can be taken off"
W....w.....wait......WHATTTTT ??????
(Runs to find Chap H.....)
Don't button up? Unless there is a SAN of 5/6/7 or it's in the vicinity or some really tough enemy leadership, why hamstring your strongest weapon? Significant difference between 6 and 7. People button up far too much (IMHO). Worst case (ish) scenario if it gets hit by infantry is it gets +1 going forward after having drawn lots of fire. Then, keep it CE again and you're no worse off than if you'd started BU in terms of your TH attempts. Pretty unlucky to then get it recalled. If it does, then shit happens.My original comment arose due to the number of burning wrecks that I have looked at playing this game and thought "did I do that right?". I suspect that the answer to that question is no.
The problem is that there are so many choices to be made when you have a tank. Do you shoot? Do you wait? Motion attempt? Smoke? Move it to a better location? It is a long list as Von Marvitz has pointed out.
Here is a recent example that leads to a dead Panther. I was playing Singling as the Germans. I had a Panther with its backside against the board edge - something I had picked up from Craig Benn. So that tank was feeling good. In command. Master of its field of fire. It even had a 75L ATG for company off to one side in a building (yes what am I doing putting it in a building but it had to go up front and that was the only place........).
My opponent starts up a Sherman. I hold fire to see what he does. Is he going to get closer? Is he just going for smoke to cover his infantry? I wait. He ends up getting closer to the Panther - so I think I'll wait for him to stop to get the better modifiers. He was also moving through orchards - best to wait till he gets to open ground. He stops, I turn the turret and my opponent points out that the white dot on the Sherman halves his modifiers in a gun duel. I was BU, had to twist the turret so he wins the duel. One dead Panther. The crew got out and Pf'd him next turn but it was a hollow victory ? The penalties for turning the ATG would have been such to make a hit impossible.
My opponent then told me you have to shoot Shermans when they are in motion............but then there is BU +1, motion +2, large target -1, change CA +2 = +4 to the dice roll. You are looking at 6 or less. There was me thinking it takes six Shermans to take out a Panther - with me playing it just took one..........
There are some players who use tanks and it is a joy to watch. Toby Pilling used to say of Mike Rudd "I've never seen anyone play tanks like him". So what makes someone a tank virtuoso?
It just hurts to see a tank go to a sniper which just happens to be close to the tank (because I was playing a better player than me and he placed it close on purpose). American infantry firepower is scary as well...............but that tank was not close to any infantry.Don't button up? Unless there is a SAN of 5/6/7 or it's in the vicinity or some really tough enemy leadership, why hamstring your strongest weapon? Significant difference between 6 and 7. People button up far too much (IMHO). Worst case (ish) scenario if it gets hit by infantry is it gets +1 going forward after having drawn lots of fire. Then, keep it CE again and you're no worse off than if you'd started BU in terms of your TH attempts. Pretty unlucky to get then get it recalled.
But, you're a good player and I can't imagine you did too much wrong. Probably just got a tad unlucky.
Again you're right. Too many options......Another thing. When it had out-manoevred you, could you not have started up and laid some smoke during the attempt? If you're at risk of losing it, get it out of danger ?
Free covered arc change (no gun duels can avoid it).
It happens but it's too rare to worry about and far more rare than that miss by 1It just hurts to see a tank go to a sniper which just happens to be close to the tank (because I was playing a better player than me and he placed it close on purpose). American infantry firepower is scary as well...............but that tank was not close to any infantry.
You are right - my opponents tanks were all CE. However he had a lot more Shermans than my two Panthers.......
Joe I'm glad to see you haven't given up on armor, it really can be quite enjoyable to play.My original comment arose due to the number of burning wrecks that I have looked at playing this game and thought "did I do that right?". I suspect that the answer to that question is no.
The problem is that there are so many choices to be made when you have a tank. Do you shoot? Do you wait? Motion attempt? Smoke? Move it to a better location? It is a long list as Von Marvitz has pointed out.
Here is a recent example that leads to a dead Panther. I was playing Singling as the Germans. I had a Panther with its backside against the board edge - something I had picked up from Craig Benn. So that tank was feeling good. In command. Master of its field of fire. It even had a 75L ATG for company off to one side in a building (yes what am I doing putting it in a building but it had to go up front and that was the only place........).
My opponent starts up a Sherman. I hold fire to see what he does. Is he going to get closer? Is he just going for smoke to cover his infantry? I wait. He ends up getting closer to the Panther - so I think I'll wait for him to stop to get the better modifiers. He was also moving through orchards - best to wait till he gets to open ground. He stops, I turn the turret and my opponent points out that the white dot on the Sherman halves his modifiers in a gun duel. I was BU, had to twist the turret so he wins the duel. One dead Panther. The crew got out and Pf'd him next turn but it was a hollow victory ? The penalties for turning the ATG would have been such to make a hit impossible.
My opponent then told me you have to shoot Shermans when they are in motion............but then there is BU +1, motion +2, large target -1, change CA +2 = +4 to the dice roll. You are looking at 6 or less. There was me thinking it takes six Shermans to take out a Panther - with me playing it just took one..........
There are some players who use tanks and it is a joy to watch. Toby Pilling used to say of Mike Rudd "I've never seen anyone play tanks like him". So what makes someone a tank virtuoso?