How to become better at using AFVs in ASL?

STAVKA

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Vehicles can remain in Motion if the hex they wish to enter is not feasible. They can exclude some options, i.e. hexes they do not wish to enter. You can argue that these are bad rules, but they are the rules we have now
 

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Vehicles can remain in Motion if the hex they wish to enter is not feasible. They can exclude some options, i.e. hexes they do not wish to enter. You can argue that these are bad rules, but they are the rules we have now
The ultimate arbiter doesn't agree with the way you interpret feasible. Even on the post you referenced, the person who replied said that's one way to look at it. Fortunately, it isn't the only or last way. Hope you are well. -- jim
 

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It's a good article but I take some exception with it. Bruce's point about "taking the first shot of the engagement" is critical but I think his definition of "first shot" as one which places acquisition is dangerous.
Wow, talk about stepping into the Way-Back Machine..

I appreciate your comments. I believe I mentioned somewhere in the article about the importance of using Bounding First Fire before an "Engagement" even takes place.

The article is a bit dated. There have been new .. "interpretations" .. of some rules, and far more game play in the community. If the article were written today, there may be several different subtle points.

Originally it was written in three large installments for Mark Hanna and At the Point. It became a bit bloated, and was written in what I fancied an "academic" or "technical" style. Kind of stale. The tone would be different today, probably. Most likely the first thing to change would be the title.

However, I think it still has legs. And I note with satisfaction that many, or even most, of the suggestions offered in this thread can be found in that article. Somewhere.

Regards,

(PS "A51 Clash Along the Psel" remains a great learning scenario for those with access to the overlays, etc. And, getting trounced by an experienced player is still the best way to learn how to handle ASL AFV.)
 

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The article is a bit dated. There have been new .. "interpretations" .. of some rules, and far more game play in the community. If the article were written today, there may be several different subtle points.
If you continue down in the thread, you'll see I said this:
It has been a long time since I read it. I may have to dig out my PDF copies and read it again. I recall the lesson I took was "get acqs" then I watched Fort/Chaney tear apart my AFV's with BFF shots and thought to myself, I am missing something and started looking at the math. It is much closer than I originally thought, especially when the guy shooting back has to change TCA and is BU. -- jim
I accepted that it had been a long time since I read it and said the point was the lesson I took, not necessarily the only lesson in the article. -- jim
 

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No worries. I didn't take your comments as a criticism at all. I didn't mean to make my reply a counter-point as such.

After all this time, it's fair to review some of the article's assertions. I considered updating the article when it was reprinted in OotA, but they wanted a straight reprint, which is understandable given the OotA concept.
 

Sparafucil3

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No worries. I didn't take your comments as a criticism at all. I didn't mean to make my reply a counter-point as such.

After all this time, it's fair to review some of the article's assertions. I considered updating the article when it was reprinted in OotA, but they wanted a straight reprint, which is understandable given the OotA concept.
I have considered writing a new one, but I don't think I could do better than the original. As I said, my only quibble can be summed up in less than a paragraph and (given I still have't re-read it) may already be in the article :) -- jim
 
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stuh42asl

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  1. Assault guns are not tanks, they do not have a turret, and most of the time, have lousy mg support. Do not use them like a tank, they are best used to support an infantry assault, keep them behind the infantry line, and keep a squad or two close by for support.
  2. German tank destroyers, are like assault guns, but hunt other tanks. They also do not have turrets, and lousy mg support. To use these find a good hull down position with a excellent field of fire. Also mentally locate alternative hull down locations to move to. I usually try to find at least two more locations, these will prevent flanking and allow for shoot and scoot. Keep your TD mobile, remember even a mortar can knock out a tank.
3) A tank engine is the most important weapon on a tank, use it

4) Tigers are rolling walls of steel....but vulnerable to infantry, even a Russian ATR can knock a track off, or a molotov will turn it into expensive oven to cook people. Keep infantry nearby. I do not use tigers in an assault I place them on a hill with the best LOS. That 88mm will kill anything so use it. The Elephant is the best TD around, use it a such, never assault infantry, unless you want to set up a pillbox with a shitty CA.

5) Medium tanks are the workhorses, use them to do the grunt work. They have great mg support, are fast and can relocate quickly. Still be careful on the assault being BU makes them vulnerable to infantry, I find that half tracked infantry make the best support. Number one rule: engines are your most important tool, you need them, a medium tank cannot duel with heavy tanks in a frontal engagement, so use your terrain and your movement. Also make sure that you can get out of trouble as quickly as you get into it. And do not forget that sometimes it is better to advance in the opposite direction to avoid a bad engagement.
 

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  1. Assault guns are not tanks, they do not have a turret, and most of the time, have lousy mg support. Do not use them like a tank, they are best used to support an infantry assault, keep them behind the infantry line, and keep a squad or two close by for support.
  2. German tank destroyers, are like assault guns, but hunt other tanks. They also do not have turrets, and lousy mg support. To use these find a good hull down position with a excellent field of fire. Also mentally locate alternative hull down locations to move to. I usually try to find at least two more locations, these will prevent flanking and allow for shoot and scoot. Keep your TD mobile, remember even a mortar can knock out a tank.
3) A tank engine is the most important weapon on a tank, use it

4) Tigers are rolling walls of steel....but vulnerable to infantry, even a Russian ATR can knock a track off, or a molotov will turn it into expensive oven to cook people. Keep infantry nearby. I do not use tigers in an assault I place them on a hill with the best LOS. That 88mm will kill anything so use it. The Elephant is the best TD around, use it a such, never assault infantry, unless you want to set up a pillbox with a shitty CA.

5) Medium tanks are the workhorses, use them to do the grunt work. They have great mg support, are fast and can relocate quickly. Still be careful on the assault being BU makes them vulnerable to infantry, I find that half tracked infantry make the best support. Number one rule: engines are your most important tool, you need them, a medium tank cannot duel with heavy tanks in a frontal engagement, so use your terrain and your movement. Also make sure that you can get out of trouble as quickly as you get into it. And do not forget that sometimes it is better to advance in the opposite direction to avoid a bad engagement.
Nice! I had hopes this thread would continue as there have been some great tips and tactics put forth.
 

stuh42asl

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Part Deux

1) Soviet Tanks. Okay depending on the year they are either a dominant factor or not. In 1941 they have fragile transmissions, but nothing the german's have save the Flak 18(88mm) will knock it out. Also the German infantry do not have PF I say again do not have PF so a T-34 platoon could be a decisive tool.

2) Just because Russians had to use platoon movement does not mean that the Russian armor is weak, nor are their guns. The standard 45L is still better than the early weapons the Germans used, as is the 76mm on the T-34. If you have the early KV'S you have a dream tank, tough, and can roll over just about anything. Do not be afraid to say to hell with using platoon movement, sure you have to roll and pass a 7 TC to move. I have broken up platoons, placed the tanks in vital locations and moved them as needed.

3) A T-34 is a dream to move over soft ground.....and is fast, I regard it as the best all around medium tank, combine it with the improved transmission, and the 85mm you have a fighting chance versus the Panther and Tiger. Use its strengths to the max.

4) Early tanks like the T-28, are horrible, slow, weak armor and fragile trannys but are good mobile pillboxes.

5) The BT tanks, are fast light and carry the 45L... also the tracks can be taken off to improve road movement. Ever consider using them to move to your opponents rear areas......What a surprise to your opponent when your BT's use roads and move farther than they expected. Use their mobility to the max, a platoon of light tanks to your rear could surprise you.

6) The SU 100 is a tank rarely used, but that 100mm does carry one hell of a punch, also uses a T-34 hull so use it to support your T-34. Also the OT series tanks are so bloody valuble DO NOT WASTE THEM is all I will say. Guess what the heaviest German tank will not survive very long versus an OT-34. I highly recommend keeping them out of the line of fire until you really need them.

7) The SU and ISU are Assault tanks use them as such.

8) Now my holy grail the JS1, 2 and 2m....these are the tanks to use, the ROF of the 122mm may be slow, but nothing save a King Tiger will be able to take the 122mm round, and the JS2M has the same armor as a King Tiger, but better movement and no fragile transmission, so you can use ESM to scoot around a target.

9) ALSO RULE #1 USE YOUR ENGINE....BEST WEAPON IN YOUR ARSENAL
 

Martin Mayers

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5) The BT tanks, are fast light and carry the 45L... also the tracks can be taken off to improve road movement. Ever consider using them to move to your opponents rear areas......What a surprise to your opponent when your BT's use roads and move farther than they expected. Use their mobility to the max, a platoon of light tanks to your rear could surprise you.
"The tracks can be taken off"

W....w.....wait......WHATTTTT ??????

(Runs to find Chap H.....)
 

WuWei

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"The tracks can be taken off"

W....w.....wait......WHATTTTT ??????

(Runs to find Chap H.....)
This is not covered by ASL rules, and it wouldn't help, because CE tracked vehicles already are as fast as wheeled ones on roads.
 

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My original comment arose due to the number of burning wrecks that I have looked at playing this game and thought "did I do that right?". I suspect that the answer to that question is no.

The problem is that there are so many choices to be made when you have a tank. Do you shoot? Do you wait? Motion attempt? Smoke? Move it to a better location? It is a long list as Von Marvitz has pointed out.

Here is a recent example that leads to a dead Panther. I was playing Singling as the Germans. I had a Panther with its backside against the board edge - something I had picked up from Craig Benn. So that tank was feeling good. In command. Master of its field of fire. It even had a 75L ATG for company off to one side in a building (yes what am I doing putting it in a building but it had to go up front and that was the only place........).

My opponent starts up a Sherman. I hold fire to see what he does. Is he going to get closer? Is he just going for smoke to cover his infantry? I wait. He ends up getting closer to the Panther - so I think I'll wait for him to stop to get the better modifiers. He was also moving through orchards - best to wait till he gets to open ground. He stops, I turn the turret and my opponent points out that the white dot on the Sherman halves his modifiers in a gun duel. I was BU, had to twist the turret so he wins the duel. One dead Panther. The crew got out and Pf'd him next turn but it was a hollow victory ? The penalties for turning the ATG would have been such to make a hit impossible.

My opponent then told me you have to shoot Shermans when they are in motion............but then there is BU +1, motion +2, large target -1, change CA +2 = +4 to the dice roll. You are looking at 6 or less. There was me thinking it takes six Shermans to take out a Panther - with me playing it just took one..........

There are some players who use tanks and it is a joy to watch. Toby Pilling used to say of Mike Rudd "I've never seen anyone play tanks like him". So what makes someone a tank virtuoso?
 

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My original comment arose due to the number of burning wrecks that I have looked at playing this game and thought "did I do that right?". I suspect that the answer to that question is no.

The problem is that there are so many choices to be made when you have a tank. Do you shoot? Do you wait? Motion attempt? Smoke? Move it to a better location? It is a long list as Von Marvitz has pointed out.

Here is a recent example that leads to a dead Panther. I was playing Singling as the Germans. I had a Panther with its backside against the board edge - something I had picked up from Craig Benn. So that tank was feeling good. In command. Master of its field of fire. It even had a 75L ATG for company off to one side in a building (yes what am I doing putting it in a building but it had to go up front and that was the only place........).

My opponent starts up a Sherman. I hold fire to see what he does. Is he going to get closer? Is he just going for smoke to cover his infantry? I wait. He ends up getting closer to the Panther - so I think I'll wait for him to stop to get the better modifiers. He was also moving through orchards - best to wait till he gets to open ground. He stops, I turn the turret and my opponent points out that the white dot on the Sherman halves his modifiers in a gun duel. I was BU, had to twist the turret so he wins the duel. One dead Panther. The crew got out and Pf'd him next turn but it was a hollow victory ? The penalties for turning the ATG would have been such to make a hit impossible.

My opponent then told me you have to shoot Shermans when they are in motion............but then there is BU +1, motion +2, large target -1, change CA +2 = +4 to the dice roll. You are looking at 6 or less. There was me thinking it takes six Shermans to take out a Panther - with me playing it just took one..........

There are some players who use tanks and it is a joy to watch. Toby Pilling used to say of Mike Rudd "I've never seen anyone play tanks like him". So what makes someone a tank virtuoso?
Don't button up? Unless there is a SAN of 5/6/7 or it's in the vicinity or some really tough enemy leadership, why hamstring your strongest weapon? Significant difference between 6 and 7. People button up far too much (IMHO). Worst case (ish) scenario if it gets hit by infantry is it gets +1 going forward after having drawn lots of fire. Then, keep it CE again and you're no worse off than if you'd started BU in terms of your TH attempts. Pretty unlucky to then get it recalled. If it does, then shit happens.

How often do you find yourself missing that vital shot by 1 when your tank is buttoned up? Happens a lot as the final numbers required are often around the 6/7/8 mark. That +1 can make ALL the difference.

But, you're a good player and I can't imagine you did too much wrong. Probably just got a tad unlucky.
 

Martin Mayers

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Another thing. When it had out-manoevred you, could you not have started up and laid some smoke during the attempt? If you're at risk of losing it, get it out of danger ?

Free covered arc change (no gun duels can avoid it).
 

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Don't button up? Unless there is a SAN of 5/6/7 or it's in the vicinity or some really tough enemy leadership, why hamstring your strongest weapon? Significant difference between 6 and 7. People button up far too much (IMHO). Worst case (ish) scenario if it gets hit by infantry is it gets +1 going forward after having drawn lots of fire. Then, keep it CE again and you're no worse off than if you'd started BU in terms of your TH attempts. Pretty unlucky to get then get it recalled.

But, you're a good player and I can't imagine you did too much wrong. Probably just got a tad unlucky.
It just hurts to see a tank go to a sniper which just happens to be close to the tank (because I was playing a better player than me and he placed it close on purpose). American infantry firepower is scary as well...............but that tank was not close to any infantry.

You are right - my opponents tanks were all CE. However he had a lot more Shermans than my two Panthers.......
 

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Another thing. When it had out-manoevred you, could you not have started up and laid some smoke during the attempt? If you're at risk of losing it, get it out of danger ?

Free covered arc change (no gun duels can avoid it).
Again you're right. Too many options......

I was under the mistaken impression that a Panther was king of the battlefield :)

What happens next though. Do you try to drive away? He had three more tanks available to move / cause trouble. You cannot stay in that smoke forever?
 

Martin Mayers

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It just hurts to see a tank go to a sniper which just happens to be close to the tank (because I was playing a better player than me and he placed it close on purpose). American infantry firepower is scary as well...............but that tank was not close to any infantry.

You are right - my opponents tanks were all CE. However he had a lot more Shermans than my two Panthers.......
It happens but it's too rare to worry about and far more rare than that miss by 1 :D

It's an art. Which I don't have. But I go CE almost all the time these days, and Intensive Fire a lot. Statistically I understand if you do both literally ALL the time that you'll gain more over a sustained period of time than you'll lose.

But that depends on how you view ASL - An individual scenario played on it's individual merits, or a long term statistically based endeavour :)

For my mind the most crucial thing about those killer tanks is to maximise the chance of them hitting when it comes to the crunch. It's only my opinion though.
 

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My original comment arose due to the number of burning wrecks that I have looked at playing this game and thought "did I do that right?". I suspect that the answer to that question is no.

The problem is that there are so many choices to be made when you have a tank. Do you shoot? Do you wait? Motion attempt? Smoke? Move it to a better location? It is a long list as Von Marvitz has pointed out.

Here is a recent example that leads to a dead Panther. I was playing Singling as the Germans. I had a Panther with its backside against the board edge - something I had picked up from Craig Benn. So that tank was feeling good. In command. Master of its field of fire. It even had a 75L ATG for company off to one side in a building (yes what am I doing putting it in a building but it had to go up front and that was the only place........).

My opponent starts up a Sherman. I hold fire to see what he does. Is he going to get closer? Is he just going for smoke to cover his infantry? I wait. He ends up getting closer to the Panther - so I think I'll wait for him to stop to get the better modifiers. He was also moving through orchards - best to wait till he gets to open ground. He stops, I turn the turret and my opponent points out that the white dot on the Sherman halves his modifiers in a gun duel. I was BU, had to twist the turret so he wins the duel. One dead Panther. The crew got out and Pf'd him next turn but it was a hollow victory ? The penalties for turning the ATG would have been such to make a hit impossible.

My opponent then told me you have to shoot Shermans when they are in motion............but then there is BU +1, motion +2, large target -1, change CA +2 = +4 to the dice roll. You are looking at 6 or less. There was me thinking it takes six Shermans to take out a Panther - with me playing it just took one..........

There are some players who use tanks and it is a joy to watch. Toby Pilling used to say of Mike Rudd "I've never seen anyone play tanks like him". So what makes someone a tank virtuoso?
Joe I'm glad to see you haven't given up on armor, it really can be quite enjoyable to play.
There have been a lot of useful tips on this thread so the only additional one I'll offer is two versions of a quote by Babe Ruth:
" Never let the fear of striking out get in your way ".
" Never let the fear of striking out keep you from playing the game ".

Pretty good advice. It's only a game so unless you have a pile of money bet on the outcome of a scenario don't be afraid to lose. As long as you have fun, give your opponent a good game and learn something you're golden. I easily lost 75% + of the scenarios I played and had a great time anyway.

I wonder how good the Babe would have been at ASL?
 
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