HIP Emplaced Gun Detection

[Squaddie]

Hi folks...

A HIP emplaced gun with 228 crew in a building hex together with an unconcealed 447 squad. Enemy 467 squad advances into the hex to engage in CC with the 447, obviously unaware of the presence of the gun & crew.

I'm scanning through the rules to determine detection procedures though can't find a specific reference to this situation...

Am I right in believing the gun and crew are placed onboard under a '?' counter?

Cheers

Squaddie

 

[SamB]

A11.19... A hidden unit must be placed on board beneath a “?” counter at the start of any CCPh in which it is in the same Location as an enemy unit.

So, you are correct. It is no longer HIP, but it could choose to stay concealed.

 

[mgmasl]

Hi folks...

A HIP emplaced gun with 228 crew in a building hex together with an unconcealed 447 squad. Enemy 467 squad advances into the hex to engage in CC with the 447, obviously unaware of the presence of the gun & crew.

I'm scanning through the rules to determine detection procedures though can't find a specific reference to this situation...

Am I right in believing the gun and crew are placed onboard under a '?' counter?

Cheers

Squaddie

The procedure is described clearly in A12.15

"..,but all hidden Units in the location must be placed on board beneath a "?" prior to that Random Selection..."

Random Selection is to decide which unit loses the concealment status..

Miguel

Edit: Sam is right. this is only in MPh. Sorry

 

[Squaddie]

Cheers Sam, Miguel... I knew it was there somewhere. Scouring through those concealment rules when I should have looked back in CC!

 

[MLaPanzer]

Not mention you can now get the ambush bonus for having a concealed unit in the hex

 

[rglesing@indot.]

A11.19... A hidden unitmust be placed on board beneath a “?” counter at the start of any CCPh inwhich it is in the same Location as an enemy unit.

So, you are correct. It is no longer HIP, but it could choose to stay concealed.

Don't forget that 1st line and elite Japanese in Jungle, bamboo, or kunai can remain hidden.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Don't forget that 1st line and elite Japanese in Jungle, bamboo, or kunai can remain hidden.

They can only remain hidden in the MPh (and it appiles not only to Japanese).

If they are HIP in a Location with enemy units at the start of the CCPh, they cannot remain hidden if I remember correctly.

 

[Jazz]

They can only remain hidden in the MPh (and it appiles not only to Japanese).

If they are HIP in a Location with enemy units at the start of the CCPh, they cannot remain hidden if I remember correctly.

You remember correctly....

G.4 DETECTION: A12.15/A12.41 does not necessarily apply when, during its MPh, an ATTACKER unit enters a jungle, kunai or bamboo Location whose occupying unit(s) consist(s) only of hidden, Stealthy Infantry DEFENDER(S), none of which is in a pillbox/building or manning a hidden Gun....
.
.
.
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...and A11.19 applies unchanged at the start of the CCPh; however, whenever a hidden unit is placed onboard as per 11.19, an Ambush can occur.

Everybody comes out at the start of CC, which means that people are routing and advancing into locations that contain HIP Japanese who come on concealed and can ambush.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Everybody comes out at the start of CC, which means that people are routing and advancing into locations that contain HIP Japanese who come on concealed and can ambush.

Wouldn't a HIP unit be revealed if a broken unit tried to rout into its Location ?

 

[Jazz]

Wouldn't a HIP unit be revealed if a broken unit tried to rout into its Location ?

I believe that the rule only states that the provisions of A11.19 take effect at the start of the CC phase? The HIPsters would not prevent rout unless they chose to reveal themselves? I'd probably leave'em HIP so that there is a full field of brokies to munch up in CC....

Or am I missing something? Please correct me ifn' I'm wrong.

 

[James Taylor]

Keeping ? in melee hex

I pulled this on Trezza the other night. (I'm sure he's adding it to his list of Taylor sleaze that I need to be flagged for).

Drove a T34 into his gun hex, stopped and locked the gun crew in CC. Advanced next to him with a concealed squad, then advanced into CC.

No ambush, so he got to go first in sequential CC. He attacked the infantry, but failed to do anything. I fired back with the tank, but did not attack with the infantry... allowing the to keep their concealment. Since my tank was in the hex his infantry were locked in melee, but mine were not.

I was hoping to maintain my ? but due to crappy dice from supporting forces outside the melee I had no effect on the gun crew. Finally I decided a 12+2 was too good an attack to pass up, and popped the lid on my CC squad. I got the NMC and the crew failed it by 1 (due to being encircled).

Crew dies trying to withdraw in CC.

Schweeeeeetttttt!!!!!

Being concealed in a melee hex is something all players need to explore.

JT

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I believe that the rule only states that the provisions of A11.19 take effect at the start of the CC phase? The HIPsters would not prevent rout unless they chose to reveal themselves? I'd probably leave'em HIP so that there is a full field of brokies to munch up in CC....

Or am I missing something? Please correct me ifn' I'm wrong.

This was what I was thinking about, A10.533:
"Upon entrance of the concealed unit's Location, one concealed non-Dummy unit therein must become Known (i.e., lose its concealment, using Random Selection) in repulsing the routing unit to the last occupied hex (wherein the routing unit must end its RtPh—and be eliminated for ending the RtPh ADJACENT to a Known enemy unit; 12.15)."

Since HIP is a form of concealment, I assume that this rule applies if you rout into a HIP units Location as well.

On the other hand if you enter in the MPh, HIP unit in there stays HIP, you break in the DFPh, and do not rout away, then you are probably in for it in the upcoming CCPh.

 

[jwb3]

This was what I was thinking about, A10.533:
"Upon entrance of the concealed unit's Location, one concealed non-Dummy unit therein must become Known (i.e., lose its concealment, using Random Selection) in repulsing the routing unit to the last occupied hex (wherein the routing unit must end its RtPh—and be eliminated for ending the RtPh ADJACENT to a Known enemy unit; 12.15)."

Since HIP is a form of concealment, I assume that this rule applies if you rout into a HIP units Location as well.

I believe Klas is dead right on this one. G.4 as worded (uhm, guys, there isn't a second edition of Chapter G, right? :shy only mentions the MPh. It says nothing about the RtPh, and COWTRA says that means G.4 does not apply during rout.

So, the routing unit will bounce and reveal the HIPster (or a HIPster, if there's more than one) and then be eliminated.

This makes me wonder what happens if the broken unit is actually in the HIPster's hex. If it goes nowhere, does the HIPster automatically get revealed? If it routs one hex and thus ends ADJACENT, does the HIPster automatically get revealed? I suspect the answer is no to both, but that it would take a great deal of rules-parsing to work it out. I also suspect that in either case, the HIPster can voluntarily drop HIP at the end of the RtPh to eliminate the unit.


John

 

[mgmasl]

This was what I was thinking about, A10.533:
"Upon entrance of the concealed unit's Location, one concealed non-Dummy unit therein must become Known (i.e., lose its concealment, using Random Selection) in repulsing the routing unit to the last occupied hex (wherein the routing unit must end its RtPh—and be eliminated for ending the RtPh ADJACENT to a Known enemy unit; 12.15)."

Since HIP is a form of concealment, I assume that this rule applies if you rout into a HIP units Location as well.

On the other hand if you enter in the MPh, HIP unit in there stays HIP, you break in the DFPh, and do not rout away, then you are probably in for it in the upcoming CCPh.

IMO, the routing movement are treated as normal movement, and so the stealthy units can maintain HIP in jungle hexes when the routing units come in the location -as Jazz says-. The rule you mention is for normal conditions, not jungle conditions, and it´s equivalent to the normal detection rule "lose the concealment, using random selection" just the same paragraph as for the movement phase. So IMO, the exc for detection in movement when moving to a jungle hex, it has to be also for the routing ph. It looks absurd that a GO unit can´t discover a HIP stealthy enemy unit when moving, and a broken -not GO- unit can do it when routing.

Only at the beginning of the CC ph are the HIP units placed onboard... It doesn´t say, "at the beginning of CC, or if a routing units enter in his location.." and if designer wished so.., it could have been clearly specified.

I agree Jazz´s PoV :thumup:-..as I usually do..-

Miguel

 

[Jazz]

This was what I was thinking about, A10.533:
"Upon entrance of the concealed unit's Location, one concealed non-Dummy unit therein must become Known (i.e., lose its concealment, using Random Selection) in repulsing the routing unit to the last occupied hex (wherein the routing unit must end its RtPh—and be eliminated for ending the RtPh ADJACENT to a Known enemy unit; 12.15)."

Since HIP is a form of concealment, I assume that this rule applies if you rout into a HIP units Location as well.

On the other hand if you enter in the MPh, HIP unit in there stays HIP, you break in the DFPh, and do not rout away, then you are probably in for it in the upcoming CCPh.

Hmmm....good point. I've not played it that way or seen it played that way, but you have a point.

Gonna have to look at it a bit more.....

 

[klasmalmstrom]

The rule you mention is for normal conditions, not jungle conditions,

I think the rule I mentioned isn't for any conditions - it makes not difference wheter it is PTO, ETO, etc. - it is a general routing rule.

G.4 is quite clear that it (G.4) only applies to the MPh and I don't see any exception for routing.

 

[Jon]

I think the rule I mentioned isn't for any conditions - it makes not difference wheter it is PTO, ETO, etc. - it is a general routing rule.

G.4 is quite clear that it (G.4) only applies to the MPh and I don't see any exception for routing.

I agree with Klas.

G.4 is clear. "A12.14/A12.41 does not necessarily apply when, **during its MPh**, an ATTACKER...." {**my emphasis}

"its MPh" is in the Movement Phase, not the Rout Phase or the Advance Phase. So the PTO exceptions to the norm only apply in the MPh as per G.4

It's an ASL oddity but broken routing units do a better job of finding HIP units in PTO terrain then do Good Order moving units. However A10.533 would apply. The routing unit enters the Location with the HIP unit, the HIP unit is revealed (if more then one HIP unit, Random Selection is used to see who loses HIP/concealment), the routing unit is repulsed to the last occupied hex, where it ends its RtPh and is eliminated for ending rout ADJACENT to a KEU

Cheers
Jon

 

[Jazz]

IMO, the routing movement are treated as normal movement, and so the stealthy units can maintain HIP in jungle hexes when the routing units come in the location -as Jazz says-. The rule you mention is for normal conditions, not jungle conditions, and it´s equivalent to the normal detection rule "lose the concealment, using random selection" just the same paragraph as for the movement phase. So IMO, the exc for detection in movement when moving to a jungle hex, it has to be also for the routing ph. It looks absurd that a GO unit can´t discover a HIP stealthy enemy unit when moving, and a broken -not GO- unit can do it when routing.

Only at the beginning of the CC ph are the HIP units placed onboard... It doesn´t say, "at the beginning of CC, or if a routing units enter in his location.." and if designer wished so.., it could have been clearly specified.

I agree Jazz´s PoV :thumup:-..as I usually do..-

Miguel

The problem is, G.4 only refers to 2 phases (Movement and CC) and one rule dealing with concealment loss (A11.19). The rule that Klas quotes (A10.533) is not specifically suspended nor is the rout phase even mentioned. I personally think the intent was to leave the hipsters HIP until CC no matter what, but this is not how the rule reads, as far as I can see.

I've submitted a Q&A to Perry, but I'm suspecting that Klas will be correct.

For all the verbage spent on something like Panjis, this section of Chap G leaves a gapping hole in what is arguably a much more important part of the rules.....but I'm not bitter....

 

[CHERDE]

common sense

Jazz: Good to ask a Perry Sez.


Rulewise I am convinced and afraid that Klas is correct,
but this result does not suit well.

Good order moving units dont reveal a HIPster.
Broken routing units do reveal a HIPster.
This is not common sense.

IMO G.4 is in need of repair by adding a A10.533 clause.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Rulewise I am convinced and afraid that Klas is correct,
but this result does not suit well.

Good order moving units dont reveal a HIPster.
Broken routing units do reveal a HIPster.
This is not common sense.

IMO G.4 is in need of repair by adding a A10.533 clause.

Personally I don't have a problem with this and don't think it is broken (i.e. needs to be repaired).
The revelation of HIP during rout comes with a price - you die.