Has anyone ever designed a scenario with Finns vs...

A_T_Great

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The British and the Soviets were allies. In fact the British attacked Finnish ships in 1941. The Finnish signed the Anti-Comintern Pact, but were not a real ally of the Germans in the Finnish’s view. They didn’t sign the Tripartite Pact. But in Paris they signed the peace treaties in 1947 as an ally of the Germans. The Finnish invade the USSR during the Continuation War. So the Finnish were not only interested in gaining back their lost territory during the earlier winter war.
They invaded the USSR in the continuation war, but were reluctant to do so, and only invaded after Germany exerted pressure upon them. They saw invading the Soviet Union, as a waste of Finnish blood and resources. But did so as, like you pointed out, they were in debt to Germany.
 

Alan Hume

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Churchill wanted to use the Finnish/Russian war to attack the Soviet Union...but then he supported the latter...go figure..
Never heard that before, I can believe it for sure but I never ever heard that until you told me just now. WOWo_O
 

Martin Mayers

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At the time, yes and later they did support Germany. However, the interesting part is that in Britain there was a large communist sentiment amongst the populous so supporting the Finns against the Russians curious.
Not really. Communism has never really taken hold here. Socialism to an extent perhaps. You might be thinking that we sent troops to the Spanish Civil war to join the International Brigades but that was very much anti-fascism rather than pro-Communism. In fact there were some, what would be considered Right Wing politicians and activists who joined the International Brigades which tells you that British politics was more to the centre than extreme wing.
 

Chris Bryer

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Not really. Communism has never really taken hold here. Socialism to an extent perhaps. You might be thinking that we sent troops to the Spanish Civil war to join the International Brigades but that was very much anti-fascism rather than pro-Communism. In fact there were some, what would be considered Right Wing politicians and activists who joined the International Brigades which tells you that British politics was more to the centre than extreme wing.

Socialism and the working class have been a thing in England for a very long time. All the way up until PM Thatcher and the unions. Even now, today's Labor party is quite an example of modern Socialism. The problem with Socialism is that is almost always turns to Communism and then to something along the lines of Totalitarianism. See China for an easy example.

That and running out of other people's money.
 

Martin Mayers

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Socialism and the working class have been a thing in England for a very long time. All the way up until PM Thatcher and the unions. Even now, today's Labor party is quite an example of modern Socialism. The problem with Socialism is that is almost always turns to Communism and then to something along the lines of Totalitarianism. See China for an easy example.

That and running out of other people's money.
Sorry mate. That's just completely untrue. It seems to be a pervadingly American view on Socialism straight out of the McCarthy playbook.

There are a significant number of societies in Europe which operate along Democratic Socialist/Socialist principles. They're a long way from Communist.

We've had Labour Governments in the UK. But never come remotely close to Communism. Socialism is reasonably prevalent in the UK (where even the Conservative Right Wing retains some Socialist Policies and Institutions). Communism is very unpopular. Of course, what the Right Wing here try to do is conflagrate the two because, a) it scares people, and b) it wins Elections.

Don't be a scaredy cat. Socialism isn't a dirty word. Ask Scandinavians and anyone who's benefited from major NHS treatment here that hasn't cost them bankruptcy.
 

Chris Bryer

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With all respect, Martin, you act as if I am out on a limb here. Millions of Europeans are in basic agreement with me.

Your fellow citizens voted to leave the EU in part because of exactly what I described. It's crazy how the people's will took so long to implement but it usually does eventually.
 

Martin Mayers

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With all respect, Martin, you act as if I am out on a limb here. Millions of Europeans are in basic agreement with me.

Your fellow citizens voted to leave the EU in part because of exactly what I described. It's crazy how the people's will took so long to implement but it usually does eventually.
I agree they are. And millions of Europeans aren't in agreement with you. But those who think Socialism must lead to Communism are demonstrably wrong. It's just an irrefutable fact. If they become Communist at some point further down the line you can feel absolutely entitled to come back and remind me of this.

Some fellow citizens voted to leave the EU. Around 52% of voters. Not exactly a basis for generalistic statement such as "your fellow citizens". And the pervading fear of Communism wasn't something which crept into that particular debate though. Like, ever. Not once. The EU's a virulently Capitalist institution. Putin absolutely despises it. You seriously think the EU is Socialist or Communist ??

Anyhow. Respect back to you to.
 

Chris Bryer

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I agree they are. And millions of Europeans aren't in agreement with you. But those who think Socialism must lead to Communism are demonstrably wrong. It's just an irrefutable fact. If they become Communist at some point further down the line you can feel absolutely entitled to come back and remind me of this.

Some fellow citizens voted to leave the EU. Around 52% of voters. The pervading fear of Communism wasn't something which crept into that particular debate though. Like, ever. Not once. The EU's a virulently Capitalist institution. Putin absolutely despises it. You seriously think the EU is Socialist or Communist ??
You edited your original post remove the "Is that what I am up against here??" You are up against nothing. Just someone with a totally differing opinion than yours that more fits in with the 52%.

Is France Socialist? Yes. Is Germany Socialist? Yes. Well, I guess the EU is Socialist. The EU was established as an economic answer to the USA. My wife is from Lyon. I was there. It has morphed into something far more than that. Imagine some group of bureaucrats from the EU telling a member country what their immigration policies should be? How is that an economic answer to the USA? If that is not Socialism, what is?

Let's discontinue the conversation as it's not ASL related and you are argumentative. ;-)
 

Martin Mayers

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You edited your original post remove the "Is that what I am up against here??" You are up against nothing. Just someone with a totally differing opinion than yours that more fits in with the 52%.

Is France Socialist? Yes. Is Germany Socialist? Yes. Well, I guess the EU is Socialist. The EU was established as an economic answer to the USA. My wife is from Lyon. I was there. It has morphed into something far more than that. Imagine some group of bureaucrats from the EU telling a member country what their immigration policies should be? How is that an economic answer to the USA? If that is not Socialism, what is?

Let's discontinue the conversation as it's not ASL related and you are argumentative. ;-)
I do that a lot. I read back after I post and thence make amendments when I think I've been unduly aggressive or unfair.

The EU isn't France and Germany regardless as to the picture people trying to propagandize it paint. As it happens you're sort of arguing agin yourself. France is Socially Democratic (and not yet Communist). Germany is a Federal Democracy and despite heavy influence from the Democratic Socialist side of it's multi party system, again is not yet Communist.

And the EU is not Socialist. You're completely confusing Social Democracy with Socialism and Communism. It's far more complex than the picture you're trying to paint. The EU is a Capitalist trading bloc.

I agree. It's not ASL. And I'M NOT ARGUMENTATIVE ;)
 

JoeArthur

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The problem with Socialism is that is almost always turns to Communism
I was helping out in an election and was trading embarrassing stories with the bloke I was pounding the streets with.

His embarrassing confession - he had once campaigned on behalf of a communist candidate. The candidate got two votes. :)

Such is Communism in England..............
 
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