East Front - maps, overlays, scenarios

[gorkowskij]

Glad to see this effort to "open up" the ASL battlefield.

We already have an abundance of boards packed with terrain, adding a few with more open space and longer lines of sight would develop an under-explored aspect of WWII. And, it wouldn't take much. Two boards laid end to end, or four boards in a 2x2 end to end arrangement, would enable opening shots at 60-ish hexes. Not that you'd want to take those shots, but that leaves space for still firing at one mile away (40 hexes) after some initial movement, and then engaging with real consequences at one-half mile (20 hexes).

To drive home the point that real fighting took place beyond rifle range, I'm reproducing here a table first shared by Sparafucil that shows a percentile distribution of kills scored by 75s and 88s at various ranges.

From Zaloga's "Red Army Handbook 1939 - 1945" page 179.

Range_______75mm gun_____88mm gun
100-200_______10.0%_________4.0%
200-400_______26.1%________14.0%
400-600_______33.5%________18.0%
600-800_______14.5%________31.2%
800-1000_______7.0%________13.5%
1000-1200______4.5%_________8.5%
1200-1400______3.6%_________7.6%
1400-1600______0.4%_________2.0%
1600-1800______0.4%_________0.7%
1800-2000______0.0%_________0.5%

 

[DonWPetros]

@DonWPetros do you have an SSR for cornfields worked out?

Yes, it should be in the SSRs on the scenario card. Rough, but I think it works. Glad to consider other ideas.

 

[RandyT0001]

From Zaloga's "Red Army Handbook 1939 - 1945" page 179.

Range_______75mm gun_____88mm gun
100-200_______10.0%_________4.0%
200-400_______26.1%________14.0%
400-600_______33.5%________18.0%
600-800_______14.5%________31.2%
800-1000_______7.0%________13.5%
1000-1200______4.5%_________8.5%
1200-1400______3.6%_________7.6%
1400-1600______0.4%_________2.0%
1600-1800______0.4%_________0.7%
1800-2000______0.0%_________0.5%

Range in centimeters, inches, feet, yards, meters, what?

 

[Sparafucil3]

Range in centimeters, inches, feet, yards, meters, what?

Meters as I recall. -- jim

 

[Scott_Blanton]

How would cornfields be different than the grain rules in the RB?

B15.1 Grain represents a cultivated field with any of a variety of standing crops.

 

[Sparafucil3]

How would cornfields be different than the grain rules in the RB?

B15.1 Grain represents a cultivated field with any of a variety of standing crops.

It wouldn't. There are some designs which reduce the hindrance to +1 per two hexes. -- jim

 

[DonWPetros]

Here's what I have for 'Cornfields' :

2. (new) ‘Cornfields’ – all Grain on board 90 is considered Cornfield terrain. Cornfields are considered Grain (B15) in all respects, with these exceptions: 1) Cornfields are ½ Level LOS Obstacles (not Hindrances). Fire Lanes are the only form of FP that can be traced through more than one (1) cornfield hex as per E.1.71.

Would like feedback if you have any.

 

[gorkowskij]

It's incongruous to say that cornfields are an obstacle, but you can trace a fire lane through them? Are they a hard stop or not? What about a blast of IFE from an AA or any ordnance fire, can they fire through? And why is corn only 1/2 level? Are they obstacles only up to 1/2 level, and then a hindrance like grain up to level 1? Too many issues with the rule as written.

I suggest something simpler. Maybe this: corn is grain (B15) that present a hindrance of +2 per hex instead of just +1.

 

[FrankH.]

Here's what I have for 'Cornfields' :

2. (new) ‘Cornfields’ – all Grain on board 90 is considered Cornfield terrain. Cornfields are considered Grain (B15) in all respects, with these exceptions: 1) Cornfields are ½ Level LOS Obstacles (not Hindrances). Fire Lanes are the only form of FP that can be traced through more than one (1) cornfield hex as per E.1.71.

Would like feedback if you have any.

I would suggest cornfields/cornstalks be not an obstacle but an increased level of hindrance. For example, +2 per hex in July, +3 in August, +4 in September. Is not corn normally harvested later than grain? If so, maybe +4 in October. I don't think there is enough protection to warrant a TEM though. And no need for a special rule for firelanes.

 

[FrankH.]

It's incongruous to say that cornfields are an obstacle, but you can trace a fire lane through them? Are they a hard stop or not? What about a blast of IFE from an AA or any ordnance fire, can they fire through? And why is corn only 1/2 level? Are they obstacles only up to 1/2 level, and then a hindrance like grain up to level 1? Too many issues with the rule as written.

I suggest something simpler. Maybe this: corn is grain (B15) that present a hindrance of +2 per hex instead of just +1.

I am surprised to see grain a full level obstacle. I had thought it a 1/2 level obstacle - should be. Corn could be full level, though.

I wonder if a harvested field of Corn should have the MF/MP penalties for up to one month after the harvest (i.e., in October), due to debris from the stalks, etc.

 

[fenyan]

Cornfields seem very hard to see through so being a LOS obstacle seems right.

 

[DVexile]

i don’t think it is necessary or desirable to add month based complications to a corn rule. If the conditions for the scenario were such that the corn wasn’t very tall then just treat it as grain for which we already have simple rules.

I agree one shouldn’t see very far into corn, but I’m not sure introducing a half level obstacle and Chapter E rule references for fire lanes is desirable. Seems like significant rules burden.

Grain with +4 soft hinderance (same level like grain) might do the trick nearly as well? Pretty close to a total LOS block and a fire lane would then end two hexes into the corn (soft hinderance but wouldnt have LOS further than two hexes in).

One other thing to consider is I think corn tall enough to be worth rules different from grain is probably harder to move through. So maybe 2MF instead of 1.5?

From game abstraction perspective that seems like it makes a difference big enough to be worth having but without learning any new rules besides different hinderance (and potentially MF) numbers.

 

[GeorgeBates]

Cornfields seem very hard to see through so being a LOS obstacle seems right.

You could say the same for sunflowers. Of course, the time of year also matters; so does latitude. A northern European corn field in June is essentially no different from Grain.

But is a rule book distinction from Grain really necessary? SSRs with modifications to Grain specific to the time and place of the scenario ought to be enough.

 

[DVexile]

But is a rule book distinction from Grain really necessary? SSRs with modifications to Grain specific to the time and place of the scenario ought to be enough.

That is a really good point actually. SSRs tweaking grain have already been used in scenarios. Just changing the hinderance and MF with an SSR based on the historical conditions or the scenario designer’s intended abstraction is a very flexible and low rules burden approach. Gets my vote!

 

[Hutch]

May I ask a question, Drill Sergeant?” Certainly. The only dumb question is the one that isn’t asked. “What kind of crops grow in a grain hex?”
What a dumb question! It can be anything; corn, wheat, barley, Cheerios. They’re all treated the same. Think of it as generic grain fields.

From the Training Guide (ASL FM-02/24)

 

[Vic Provost]

It's incongruous to say that cornfields are an obstacle, but you can trace a fire lane through them? Are they a hard stop or not? What about a blast of IFE from an AA or any ordnance fire, can they fire through? And why is corn only 1/2 level? Are they obstacles only up to 1/2 level, and then a hindrance like grain up to level 1? Too many issues with the rule as written.

I suggest something simpler. Maybe this: corn is grain (B15) that present a hindrance of +2 per hex instead of just +1.

I have to admit, a +2 Hindrance per Hex makes more sense to me that it being a LOS Obstacle, Grain has never been such a thing and we should not set a president with corn, which I agree is a bit harder than other grain crops but not enough to be an obstacle for bullets wizzing though. If it is not full grown, going with normal grain rules works but once it is 4+ feet high, a +2 Hindrance SSR does the trick.
That is how I would handle it if in a Dispatches scenario, Vic.

 

[DonWPetros]

I truly appreciate all the comments. I grew up and worked in cornfields as a kid. (knee-high in June, chest high in July, way over your head in/after August. If you didn't walk right down the row in August - you'd be struggling to walk across the rows). Still, the current LOS 'obstacle' note doesn't seem quite right - bullets would go right through, but you cannot see where they're aimed at either. So what to do..

• Cornfields are a unique kind of crop prevalent in the East Front and a terrain type that Grain rules don't quite work for given their visual density and difficulty in movement through
• Need to prepare something that can be put on a scenario card SSR easily - abstraction preferred - modify the SSR depending upon the timing (if in August - more difficult)
• LOS Hindrance +2 per hex as Vic says above? by the 3rd hex - LOS is effectively blocked?
• Movement - per SSR (could be 1 in June / 1.5 in July / 2 in August +)
• Height - per SSR (could be 1/2 in June-July, then 1 in August +)

 

[DonWPetros]

Here is the latest version of the scenario that uses this Cornfield rule. (one of 13 scenarios that cover the area outside of Ponyri). I'm trying out a +3 LOS Hindrance.
Feedback...welcomed

 

[gorkowskij]

Here is the latest version of the scenario that uses this Cornfield rule. (one of 13 scenarios that cover the area outside of Ponyri). I'm trying out a +3 LOS Hindrance.
Feedback...welcomed


View attachment 28365

A few thoughts.
B27.6 already allows trenches to connect to gullies, therefore no need for an SSR (#3) to specify.
Is kindling allowed? Will lighting the corn on fire wreck the scenario?

 

[DonWPetros]

Ah! Thanks. Will omit reference. Good catch. Kindling eh? Well, kindling the corn could happen I suppose... Yea, that would make it pretty difficult for the Germans to push through. Historically, no reference to that happening. May need to add that SSR too.