Depiction of foxholes in CM: Normandy

Sgt_Kelly

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They knew where the trenches were at Brecourt - they had reconnoitered the position before hand. So the FOW issue doesn't apply there either.
They knew where some of them were, not all of them. Also there's knowing where they are and knowing where they are.

In CMx1 you could design the scenario with the attacker having 'they're in yonder treeline' style intelligence and a 155mm spotter too far away from the action for the player to walk him into direct LOS. That way you could simulate a prep bombardment on rather vaguely known enemy positions.

Conversely you could give him 2 Shermans and force him to push his infantry close enough to spot the trenches.

Subtle ways of balancing the scenario, different challenges.

But then CMx1 was more of a toolbox than it was a game. The scenarios delivered with the game were nothing out of the ordinary and certainly much better stuff was subsequently produced by the community. The game even lent itself to metacampaigns involving dozens of people and running for years.
As such, the content delivered with CMx1 games was almost of no consequence, it was the quality of the toolbox that mattered. And this includes being able to do things that didn't happen in the real war, such as a Sitzkrieg in the ETO.

CMx2 is an entirely different kettle of fish. You're encouraged to play the soloplayer campaign that comes with a module and then move on to the next one. It seems to me the toolbox has been grudgingly included because they knew that trying to sell the game with just one grotty campaign without cut-scene continuity, and all the other paraphernalia that other 'play thru' games usually come with, wouldn't cut it.

What they did not want to do was give us another toy that we could take away into our corner and happily play with by ourselves for another 4 years while having no need of BFC Inc.

From that point of view no trenches or AutoSpot trenches are a lot less of an issue, yes.
 

Redwolf

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I don't think anybody ever wanted castle like WW1 like elaborate trench system, much less trench systems with dugouts in the sides of the trenches and whatnot.

What we need is fighting positions and if we can have it fighting positions connected by covered walkways in the ground. Whatever you call them.
 

dalem

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Ok, that excuse works for Normandy (although those who have a burning wish to recreate the Brecourt Manor scenario are pretty stuffed...) and arguably the entire ETO, but wasn't this engine supposed to be able to handle all wars regardless of time and place ?

How can you claim to have produced the universal wargame engine if it struggles to do defensive positions properly ?
Yeah, I think that whole "we're building all the slots and switches for everything from bows & arrows to supernova missiles and simply turning off what the game we want doesn't need" went the same way as "And I assure you that if we abandon any platform, it will not be the Macintosh" statement.

i.e. something we're not supposed to remember.

-dale
 

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The problem is that the terrain mesh is complex and not easily modified on the fly. So yes, we could have no deformable terrain while in the game (no shell craters)
I don't get that. By definition craters modify the mesh on the fly.

But it looks like enough push and shove has at least got us to the brink of having FOW foxholes.

Drinks all round. :toast:
 

thewood

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The crater thing had me puzzlin' too. What is the difference? Although they have has a lot of issues with positioning in craters and the grid thingy.
 

Michael Dorosh

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It may be a difference in terminology.



That's what I'd call more like a foxhole.



A slit trench. Note better overhead cover.
The first is a shellscrape if you ask me. A shellscrape is a very shallow depression, just enough to get yourself into lying prone, so that shrapnel whizzing past perpendicular to the plane of the earth will miss you. You dig it when you first get into a position, then as time permits, you go deeper, ending up with a foxhole/slit trench.

The best type of slit-trench will be l-shaped, with one arm for fighting from, the other arm with overhead cover to protect from shrapnel and falling objects during a barrage etc. So says A RISING OF COURAGE, a book about Canadian paratroops in Normandy, which talks about how the green troopers of 1 Can Para Battalion were reluctant to improve their trenches during their first week in Normandy.
 
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Sirocco

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The first was about as good as I could get, given time constraints.

You dig it when you first get into a position, then as time permits, you go deeper, ending up with a foxhole/slit trench.
That's pretty much the point I'm reaching for. I think having two sets of holes, whatever you call them, one more hasty than the other, would provide a better represenation of dealing with the defender. And it would give the defender some interesting choices, too, in QB's.

But as of right now I'd be content with one uniform foxhole with FOW.
 

Redwolf

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But as of right now I'd be content with one uniform foxhole with FOW.
That's what I just posted at BFC.

I DON'T CARE ABOUT ALL THIS STUFF.

What I want is plain and simply setup up my defenders, the valuable assets like AT guns in particular, wherever I want, and it requires protection from terrain and fog of war. That's all.

Don't care about trenches, slit or full.

The only reason I ever used CMBB/CMAK trenches was that the CMx1 foxholes didn't provide enough cover in light terrain. The CMBB/CMAK trenches were useless for moving under fire anyway, they were just glorified long foxholes. Since I had a great time with CMx1 I figure that the bloody trenches can't be that important.
 

Michael Dorosh

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That's what I just posted at BFC.

I DON'T CARE ABOUT ALL THIS STUFF.

What I want is plain and simply setup up my defenders, the valuable assets like AT guns in particular, wherever I want, and it requires protection from terrain and fog of war. That's all.

Don't care about trenches, slit or full.

The only reason I ever used CMBB/CMAK trenches was that the CMx1 foxholes didn't provide enough cover in light terrain. The CMBB/CMAK trenches were useless for moving under fire anyway, they were just glorified long foxholes. Since I had a great time with CMx1 I figure that the bloody trenches can't be that important.
What you want less is the dolts who don't know a shellscrape from a trench system driving the agenda of the conversation. That seems to be just about everyone over there who isn't Steve. Half the posts here didn't distinguish between "trenches" and "foxholes" either. You can't have a conversation without first framing what you're talking about.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Well. I suppose you can. ;)

In all seriousness, though, this is one of those nightmares that I knew would be endemic to the 1:1 rep move. How many men can you put in a foxhole? How many angels should dance on the head of a pin?
 

Redwolf

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Well. I suppose you can. ;)

In all seriousness, though, this is one of those nightmares that I knew would be endemic to the 1:1 rep move. How many men can you put in a foxhole? How many angels should dance on the head of a pin?
That's what I was telling Steve today. He doesn't seem to think it's a big problem. But I think it is. You would have to have logical groups of foxholes that all belong together and then you can plot into it.

I really hope this doesn't go into a "don't worry about it, the leftover guys will find some cover on their own" direction.
 

Michael Dorosh

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That's what I was telling Steve today. He doesn't seem to think it's a big problem. But I think it is. You would have to have logical groups of foxholes that all belong together and then you can plot into it.

I really hope this doesn't go into a "don't worry about it, the leftover guys will find some cover on their own" direction.
12 GI's take over a position occupied by a 9 man German SS squad.

What happens?

A 9 man SS squad is ordered to dig in at the start of a scenario. But they are set to 70% casualties in the editor (well, you could do that in CMX1). They get "fallback" positions. How many foxholes do they get in the fallback positions? 9? 6.3? 6?

It is probably a simple matter of getting two men to fit into the same foxhole - they did this in real life, just like you can get 8 men in an army jeep if you want to and if someone is shooting at you and you want to get out of there bad enough.
 

TacCovert4

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I don't know about back then, but now it's most desirable to HAVE TWO guys in the same foxhole. I'd say that the computer put the guys in by 2s and then the leftovers got put into foxholes of 3, no more than 4.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Their forum is going from bad to worse. Three bad posts in a row.

JasonC:
I have few dogs in this discussion, as (1) I've already pointed out the way to get unhidden field works to preserve some fog of war (provide more than needed, so their presence does not indicate an occupied position), and because (2) fog of war foxholes are still possible and would cover much of what is required beyond the workaround in (1).

But I do have quibbles with some of the points made in passing about firepower vs. field fortifications and what spotted enemy does and doesn't imply, the level of battlefield recon one can expect in Normandy conditions, the effect it had on allied firepower arms, etc. And a related issue that is important for this concerns purely protective infantry shelters ("dugouts"), as distinct from exposed fighting positions. Which ties in with previous discussions about log bunkers etc.

I return to the example position in front of St. Lo. If you bother to actually count them, you will find the defending battalion position has a little more than 350 dugouts indicated in the scheme, along with a little under 350 separate rifle pits, and a dozen or so heavier weapon pits. The dugouts are not just foxholes. Rifle pits are, those are exposed from above and meant as fighting positions. Some of the dugouts have MG fire indicators, those are effectively log bunkers. But many, the majority, do not, and they are protective positions with their own associated rifle pits or other fighting positions (along a hedgerow, a sunken lane, etc).

Why do they have both? Because the dugouts are proof against 105mm artillery from above. I've explained the standard all armies used to protect infantry against 105mm artillery since WW I. It works, men in cover that prepared can ride out a shelling by 105mm artillery (or 81mm mortars etc), without suffering any appreciable casualties. At worst, an occasional position will be buried and require assistance from friends to dig out of. Such positions are *not* proof against a *direct hit* by *155mm* or large shells. But operationally, that is of no consequence. I will demonstrate why shortly.

The defenders can be in one of two basic postures. They are either manning their rifle pits, with at least 1 man each, or they are in their dugouts, with typically 2 men in each.

How exposed are they in either case, to enemy artillery fire falling on the position?

First, we can dispense immediately with the notion that exact location of an specific dugout or rifle pit matters in the slightest. The size of barrage beaten areas the attackers are going to use are 200 by 200 meters minimum, with 400 by 400 meters much more common. The entire position is 1000 meters by 1250 meters. The field fortifications systematically avoid field interiors and the shells cannot do so. Very large portions of the shells fired are going to fall in open areas and do nothing, whether the attackers know where the defenders are, or not.

Suppose the attackers toss 155mm shells into the entire 1000 x 1250 area at random, while men are in their dugouts. Assume the vulnerable footprint of a single dugout is 6 square meters (3 by 2) for a direct hit. Then the chance of an individual 155 shell hitting any dugout directly is 1 out of 625. The attackers might have the support of a single 155mm howitzer battalion, which might fire 500 shells a day. But be generous and double both figures (2 battalions, 1000 per day each), and then fire for 2 days, as well. They will hit 6 or 7 dugouts and kill 12-14 men. Competely inconsequential losses to a full infantry battalion, entirely incommensurate with the ammo expenditure, not anything the attackers will voluntarily repeat, etc.

If the attackers are also supported by 4 battalion equivalents of 105 (div arty and cannon companies of 2 regiments) each firing much more often, 2500 rounds a day, it won't raise the losses at all really, since the men are by hypothesis in 105mm proof cover. Maybe a handful of additional losses, 20-25 men, for a huge firepower expenditure.

Now instead suppose the men are in their fighting positions. Supposed that they are somewhat exposed through time, such that any 105mm round landing within 5 meters of their specific hole has a 50% chance of causing a casualty. Then the portion of 105mm shells close enough will be 1 in 45 fired, and the losses half of that. Even without the 155mm support, the 105mm support postulated above will be enough to inflict 110 casualties per day, 220 over the two day period. The defending battalion will bleed to death on the position, its morale likely breaking in days and certainly bled to ineffectiveness within a week. Being no further located than in the right grid-square.

Moral of the analysis - 105mm proof dugout cover is not foxhole cover. 105mm proof dugout cover *defeats* firepower-only attacks. Trumps them cold.

But located and manned fighting positions can be bled white on a time scale of days using firepower based attacks.

Moral - the purpose of combined arms attacks by infantry are to force the enemy to man his actual fighting positions and get out of his bomb-proof dugouts.

Note that the defender can achieve the same relationship by simply denuding his front line of more than a token 10th of his force at once, in any region not pressed. If his rear area positions are completely unlocated they don't even need to be shell proof. But cellars and such will generally be both unlocated and shell proof, if far enough from the front line. Again the threat of attack by maneuver arms is required to force the enemy to expose himself enough, that firepower arms have anything to "bite" on.

For these tactical relationships to hold in a game, the following are essential.

(1) artillery needs to be a blunt intrument, hitting wide areas not individual point targets.
(2) shell proof forms of cover must exist. They need not be positions one can fight from, for more than a few heavy weapons bunkers. But positions that protect ordinary squad infantry from 105mm caliber artillery, *totally*, need to exist. (Cellars, bunkers, dugouts, caves, call them whatever).
(3) It is *not* necessary that all forms of cover be unspotted by the attacker. He has to *not know* whether any given cover type that *is* vulnerable to artillery, is actually *manned* or not, or not know where it is. This can be accomplished by giving the defender more than enough of such forms of cover, or by making them hidden, or any mix of the two.

Artillery *could* destroy concentrated defenders on an entire grid-square, without muss or fuss, *if* and *only if* those defenders lacked overhead cover against a 105mm round.

In practice, German defensive schemes in Normandy worked and kept allied firepower arms to about 1/3rd of their war-long average effectiveness, by employed thinned schemes from side to side across the frontage. What do I mean by a thinned scheme? I mean real positions interspersed with dummy positions and obstacles.

Sector A has a position like the nose depicted in the diagram. Sector B is just mined and has mortars registered over it. Sector C is flooded. Sector D is mined and has a less extensive infantry position behind it. Sector E is empty on the same depth, but has a minefield a half-kilometer further south. Sector F parallels E but with a full infantry position again. Etc.

If the Americans try to use artillery ahead of infantry across all sectors, half of it will be utterly wasted on sectors with no infantry defenders present, to speak of. If they advance broad front on all sectors with infantry, they will be chopped to pieces on a third of the frontage where they hit full positions, breaking up inter-unit coordination. They will only be delayed and annoyed on the other portions, but will at best lap around extra sides of the full position "blocks". Meanwhile another such staggered positions of reals and dummy will be built 1-2 km further south, and the whole game repeated on a time scale of 2-5 days.

That sort of thing needs to be possible. But can probably be accomplished by (1) hidden foxholes plus (2) some form of dugout-cellar-log bunker cover allowed plus (3) when trenches are present, giving the Germans way more of them than needed to hold their manpower.

Fog of war was implemented decently with just dummy counters before computer double-blind was practical. Extra field fortifications can do the same.

But, big but, there needs to be some way to put an infantry squad in something that will let it utterly ignore a wide 105mm barrage, and emerge unscathed from it, to hit infantry following the barrage.

For what it is worth.
C'Rogers:

Wow, between this and the 'what does the picture of a Tiger mean' thread, quite a lot of fast paced discussions/arguments over very little about CM:Normandy.

As a note to people who are concerned about multiplayer competitiveness with visible trenches, why not just have more bunkers, less trenches? It isn't like the trench was the be all/end all defense in CMx1 and the defender couldn't hope to play without it.

Anyone else looking forward to when they post the first picture of a Bren?
ASL Veteran:

Seems like there is a lot of 'tilting at windmills' going on in this thread. Steve has already answered the questions as to the feasibility of having FOW with trenches and foxholes. Everything that followed after his initial answer to that question where he explained what was feasible and what wasn't is really just a waste of bandwidth and a bunch of whining imo . It's really just a matter of if a person that is contemplating the purchase of CM: Normandy will decide to still purchase it or not after hearing the explanation that was given. After the individual gamer sits down and makes that decision then just live with that decision and be done with it.

Quite honestly with Adam and Steve going at it .... wow. I mean, Steve at least has a horse in the discussion as he put a lot of blood sweat and tears into making the thing over the course of the last ten years. Adam? I don't honestly know what your horse is here. What is it? $45 and a few years of wargaming enjoyment? The reality is, Adam, that if you check what tactical combat simulators are on the market right now you will probably not find anything that comes close to Combat Mission x1 or x2. Now you can take a break and play company of heroes for a while and have some fun with that, or you can take Steve's explanation of the possible and the impossible and accept it. I assume that you enjoyed CMx1 since you seem to rave about it so at some level you have to believe that Steve, Charles, and yes even Dan and the rest have produced some quality products in the past. Why you don't account for the years of fun that you have already had with CMx1 products and say something along the lines of "okay Steve, I've really enjoyed your games and I accept your explanation of what's possible and what's not possible so in light of our discussion here I'm going to take a pass on all things CMx2 until this issue is addressed." You like CMx1? Great, just keep playing it then. I think that's why Steve is getting frustrated. You like CMx1 so just play it. He's explained what the limitations are. Accept the limitations for what they are and move on.

I didn't buy Shock Force until just a few months ago. I heard that it was real time and so I opted out. I didn't hang around the forums whining about it. I just kept playing CMx1 and Total War, along with some other stuff. I checked the forums later and saw they had We Go back in so I bought it. See, it's pretty simple stuff. Steve doesn't owe you anything. BFC makes a game and you can choose to buy it or not - it's entirely up to you. Steve is certainly not holding a gun to your head and stealing 45 bucks out of your pocket.

Now then, regarding the FOW keep in mind that it is only Trenches and Foxholes ... only. Steve indicated that there will be improved sandbagged positions as well as bunkers / pill boxes that can be used in defense that DO have FOW. So, you could spend your time merrily bombarding that unoccupied trench line and then stumble into a hidden bunker. Ouch. Anyway, I just want to mention to Steve that I think sometimes you defend the game a little too vigorously. Sometimes I wish you would just answer Adam's question and be done with it. Let others continue the discussion as far as that goes because others will carry the discussion forward. If someone keeps asking repetitive questions maybe just a simple "Asked and answered" would be fine :) .

Incidentally, I would also like to add that if any of you have been to other game forums the level of interaction we have with the guys doing the ACTUAL CODING is probably damn near unprecedented. In case anyone thinks I'm a Fanboi, just look in the archived threads and you should see that Steve and I have had some disputes - I was even forced to acknowledge he was right one time and I did actually apologize to him on the forum :( . Yet, overall I still think my larger point was actually correct - he did get me on the smaller point so I had to admit it (it was regarding targeting and hit probability in one of the accuracy threads).
 

Redwolf

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For the record, I don't think Steve said we'd have sandbagged positions with FoW.

Pillboxes/bunkers are vehicles like in CMx1.

None of these would be a replacement for some kind of fighting dugout.
 

Michael Dorosh

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They are part of the mesh, correct. But "deforming" is generally thought of as what happens to terrain during combat. Shell craters, for example, or knocking down trees. Those are "deformations" because the terrain original didn't have those shell craters or knocked down trees. Trenches and foxholes, on the other hand, are there from the very beginning as part of the mesh. Yes, all of these things modify the mesh but one thing is done on the fly to the battlefield and the other is done at the beginning before the battlefield is presented to the player.

Steve
What on earth is the difference between deforming the terrain during the game and deforming it at game setup?

Also:

Tank overruns are needed, but not exactly sure what visual affects they will have.
And Elmar "doesn't get it"

What? Magical fox holes? I cannot understand the issue you are having with five men not fitting in foxholes dug to fit four. One man will have to hide in the grass.
He doesn't have an issue with this? Really? Oh, wait. He's a beta tester. He also didn't have an issue with a lot of things that he probably should have. ;)
 
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thewood

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What on earth is the difference between deforming the terrain during the game and deforming it at game setup?

Also:



And Elmar "doesn't get it"



He doesn't have an issue with this? Really? Oh, wait. He's a beta tester. He also didn't have an issue with a lot of things that he probably should have. ;)
Ouch, that hits close
 

Michael Dorosh

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Okay, but seriously, what is the "solution" to the 5 into 4 problem, if that is what it is?

I kind of do have a problem with this. Conceptually, I think most of these positions should be 2-man holes to start with. Redwolf says he doesn't care what kind of positions we're talking about, but that's kind of the crux of the matter. Steve hasn't conceptualized any of this stuff yet, and it's going to get off to a rocky start. Just like tank overruns of infantry. What about close-assaults of tanks? I've been harping on that since 2007 when I saw that they aren't in CM:SF. If you have tanks and infantry in close vicinity of each other, they need to interact or you have lost verisimilitude.

What about close combat between infantry. What if one squad is in the foxholes and one isn't? Will you have "infantry overruns"? More 1:1 rep questions.

C'Rogers posted the snide question about what will happen when someone posts a picture of a Bren gun, if the mere mention of foxholes is enough to get so many questions going. But isn't that the point? These are all legitimate lines of discussion on a game that is based on a rather flimsy conceptualization. Steve wants to hang whatever he can't figure out on the abstraction peg and say it was that way in CM:BO - and in the next breath remind you that CM:BO was a terrible game that had to be replaced PDQ...
 

thewood

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The amount of discussion shows that the interest in a Syria-based war was not very high. People have been lokking for an excuse to go back in and discuss this stuff.
 
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