Defensive fire while in motion

SSlunt

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Need assistance to confirm or deny my thoughts

A Russian tank that is in motion decides to fire at a German tank that passes into its line of site, having spent 4 MP in the Russian tanks LOS
Trying to figure out the DRM to the Russian tank.
German tank is moving +2

it must use the Case C, or C1, or C2 DRM as applicable and must double the lower dr of its TH DR.

Case C does not apply because it is Not Bounding fire as it has not entered a new hex/hexside during its MPh (because it is not his MPh)
C1 and C2 do not apply as the German tank spends 4 MP in LOS +0


So the only other item that applies is the Doubling of the lower dr.

I suspect that there is an errata somewhere.
 

Eagle4ty

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Nope because the Russian Tank if firing during the German MPh
Incorrect; Case-B would automatically apply because it is part of case-C which use is mandated by case-C4 (C5,35). Also, Case A may apply because the In-Motion vehicle firing as D1F does not meet the criteria of being a Bounding First Firer since it is not firing in its MPh. Most Russian tanks must also be BU to fire so case-I might also apply as a Firer Based TH DRM. All in all, if you're on the move and Defensive Firing at a Moving/Motion target, the modifier tend to add up in a hurry.:wtf::readit:
 

klasmalmstrom

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The Russian tank - being in Motion - must use Case C4. C4 = Case C +2 (which includes Case B [another +2]) + doubling of lower die. Add in the +2 for moving target, and you are looking at a minimum of +6 with doubling of the lower die.
 

jrv

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The Russian tank - being in Motion - must use Case C4. C4 = Case C +2 (which includes Case B [another +2]) + doubling of lower die. Add in the +2 for moving target, and you are looking at a minimum of +6 with doubling of the lower die.
That's a minimum of +5. The first value of one for the lower die would apply whether the tank was in Motion or not. Or by example, if the tank rolled snakeeyes, the Original DR is 2 and the final DR is 7 (+2 Case C, +2 Case B, & double the lower DR for an *additional* +1).

JR
 

klasmalmstrom

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That's a minimum of +5. The first value of one for the lower die would apply whether the tank was in Motion or not. Or by example, if the tank rolled snakeeyes, the Original DR is 2 and the final DR is 7 (+2 Case C, +2 Case B, & double the lower DR for an *additional* +1).
I was including the +2 TH DRM for the moving target, per the OP's situation.
 

jrv

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I was including the +2 TH DRM for the moving target, per the OP's situation.
Then it's a minimum of +7: +2 case C, +2 case B, +1 doubling lower die, +2 moving target. I see; you listed the doubling separately from the DRMs. I think of it as a (variable) DRM. My misunderstanding.

JR
 

A_T_Great

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I always thought per D2.42 the tank in this situation would use case C4 plus all applicable case Js.
 

A_T_Great

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What I meant was case C4 without C,C1,C2 as none of them are applicable. Quote: If the vehicle is not equipped with a Gyrostabilizer, it must use case C or C1 or C2 DRM as Applicable. Case C should not be applicable, because it is not firing in the AFPh, and it is not a bounding firer. Rather, it is a Defensive First Firer, that is in motion.
 

jrv

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The "as applicable" is parallel to the "as applicable" in the previous sentence about Gyrostabilizer AFVs, where the parenthetical "(depending on MP expended in continuous LOS of the target just prior to the shot)" is used to explain that the "applicability" has to do with MP spent in LOS, not with whether the shot was taken in the AFPh or not. See also the EX following C5.35. The PSW 234/2 pays C4 plus case C plus case B. It could perhaps be worded better, but the intention is that C4 always uses case C (& case B).

JR
 

jrv

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There is also this Q&A:

q&a said:
C5.35 & D2.42
A vehicle is marked with a motion counter and in the DFPh fires its Main Armament at an infantry target (it does not have a stabilized gun). D2.42 states that Case C4 must be applied to the To Hit DR because the vehicle is in motion. When applying C4 which of the following is correct?

A. The only modifier is the doubling of the lower dr because Cases C, C1 and C2 are only applicable in the vehicle’s own movement phase.
B. The lower dr should be doubled and Case C (including Case B) applies because in rule C5.35 the words “if applicable” only relate to Cases C1 and C2.
C. The lower dr should be doubled and Case C (including Case B) applies for some other reason I cannot find in the rules.

A. B.
JR
 

Uncle_Duke

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In my opinion, C5.35 is a contender for the worst-written rule in the entire book. Without outside explanation, there is absolutely no way I ever would have come to the correct conclusion about how to implement it.
 

SSlunt

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A. The only modifier is the doubling of the lower dr because Cases C, C1 and C2 are only applicable in the vehicle’s own movement phase.
B. The lower dr should be doubled and Case C (including Case B) applies because in rule C5.35 the words “if applicable” only relate to Cases C1 and C2.
C. The lower dr should be doubled and Case C (including Case B) applies for some other reason I cannot find in the rules.

A. B.

The above answer does not make sense because Answer A says "The only modifers is..
You can not have Only 1 and then add a second answer.

So maybe I am did not explain the situation fully enough
Lets make it simpler.
During the GERMAN Mph a German tank spends 1 MP to start and is currently in the LOS of a CE Russian Tank in Motion
The Russian tank want to fire.
The Motion fire rule states that Case C or C1 or C2 if applicable
Case B does not apply to the Russian because: 5.2 CASE B; FIRE IN AFPh: it is not the Russians AFPh it is the German MPh
Case C does not apply to the Russian because 5.3 CASE C; BOUNDING FIRER: A vehicle (including its Passengers) which has entered a new hex/hexside during its MPh but does not fire until its AFPh again it is not the Russian MPh i
Case C1, and C2 do not apply because the German tank was in the LOS at the start the German MPh

The only thing that I see that actually applies is the Doubling of the lower dice. If this could probably be argued that it does not apply
5.35 CASE C4; MOTION FIRER: A Motion/Non-Stopped vehicle which is moving and wishes to fire in its MPh without stopping

And taking the adage about consider what the rules says - A motion vehicle may not actually be able to fire unless it is in its Own movement phase.
 

jrv

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A. The only modifier is the doubling of the lower dr because Cases C, C1 and C2 are only applicable in the vehicle’s own movement phase.
B. The lower dr should be doubled and Case C (including Case B) applies because in rule C5.35 the words “if applicable” only relate to Cases C1 and C2.
C. The lower dr should be doubled and Case C (including Case B) applies for some other reason I cannot find in the rules.

Answer. B.

The above answer does not make sense because Answer A says "The only modifers is..
You can not have Only 1 and then add a second answer.
The first "A." in "A. B." is an abbreviation for "Answer". It does not mean that both A. and B. are the right answers. B is right.

JR
 

jrv

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Regarding the application of case B whenever case C applies:

q&a said:
C5.35 Does Case B apply when Case C applies, even when the fire is by a Motion (i.e. non-Bounding) vehicle firing in a Phase other than the AFPh?
A. Yes. [Compil7]
JR
 
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