Concealment and Melee

Juzek

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During the APh a squad advances into a Location containing a HIP Gun and crew. The gun and crew are placed onboard concealed, correct?

Assuming the answer to that is yes, if the crew declines to attack in CC and retains concealment, and survives the enemy's CC attack, a Melee does not exist and the location is marked with a CC counter.

In the following PFPh, the gun and crew attempt to hit the units in their hex, and lose concealment. Is there now a Melee in that location? Or is there no Melee until the next CCPh?

We had trouble finding the answer in the RB and Q&A.
 

Doug Leslie

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The crew is in melee as soon as concealment is lost.

11.15 MELEE: If Infantry of both sides remain in the same Location after all initial CC attacks have been resolved at the end of a CCPh, they [EXC: bicyclists, skiers] are considered to be locked in Melee and may not leave that Location or attack except as part of CC.15 Infantry are also held in Melee by enemy Cavalry, cyclists, and non-Abandoned, Stopped, "unbroken" (12.1) vehicles. Place a Melee counter above the stack of units so afflicted [EXC: Any unit which retains its concealment (11.19) is not locked in Melee itself nor can it hold opposing units in Melee. It is free to fire in its next Fire Phase (into the Melee at TPBF; 7.212) or leave the Location in its next MPh/APh. Therefore, a concealed unit may wish to decline its CC attack opportunity in an effort to save its concealment. Upon losing its "?" such a unit in a Melee Location is immediately held in Melee…..

Edited... right rule citation but wrong interpretation. As noted subsequently, a melee hasn't formed yet, so the crew is not yet held in melee.
 
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klasmalmstrom

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Assuming the answer to that is yes, if the crew declines to attack in CC and retains concealment, and survives the enemy's CC attack, a Melee does not exist and the location is marked with a CC counter.
No CC counter should be placed in the Location.


In the following PFPh, the gun and crew attempt to hit the units in their hex, and lose concealment. Is there now a Melee in that location? Or is there no Melee until the next CCPh?
Since there's no ongoing Melee in the Location, none is formed when the Concealment is lost.
 

Juzek

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The crew is in melee as soon as concealment is lost.
Upon losing its "?" such a unit in a Melee Location is immediately held in Melee…..
Doug, I think the problem here is that it is not a Melee location yet. The gun crew kept concealment and did not attack, and the attacker's CC attack was ineffective.

No CC counter should be placed in the Location.
Wouldn't a CC counter already be there, since the enemy unit advanced into the Location? I guess I'm not sure when or if CC counters are placed. Is that only for Berserk/Human Wave/Banzai charges?

Since there's no ongoing Melee in the Location, none is formed when the Concealment is lost.
Very interesting. So in this situation, the gun crew could shoot at the enemy squad in the PFPh, the squad could shoot at the crew in the DFPh, and assuming the crew isn't pinned, it could leave the hex in the APh? If the crew breaks in the DFPh it could rout out of the hex?
 

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The crew is in melee as soon as concealment is lost.

11.15 MELEE: If Infantry of both sides remain in the same Location after all initial CC attacks have been resolved at the end of a CCPh, they [EXC: bicyclists, skiers] are considered to be locked in Melee and may not leave that Location or attack except as part of CC.15 Infantry are also held in Melee by enemy Cavalry, cyclists, and non-Abandoned, Stopped, "unbroken" (12.1) vehicles. Place a Melee counter above the stack of units so afflicted [EXC: Any unit which retains its concealment (11.19) is not locked in Melee itself nor can it hold opposing units in Melee. It is free to fire in its next Fire Phase (into the Melee at TPBF; 7.212) or leave the Location in its next MPh/APh. Therefore, a concealed unit may wish to decline its CC attack opportunity in an effort to save its concealment. Upon losing its "?" such a unit in a Melee Location is immediately held in Melee…..
Incorrect, as the gun crew was never in a Melee Location. As Klas has pointed out no CC marker is placed but I have found it's common practice to mark it so as to indicate Target Selectin Limits (A7.212) apply and draw attention to the Location. I do not see that putting a CC marker on the Location has any detrimental effects at this point.
 

Juzek

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Incorrect, as the gun crew was never in a Melee Location. As Klas has pointed out no CC marker is placed but I have found it's common practice to mark it so as to indicate Target Selectin Limits (A7.212) apply and draw attention to the Location. I do not see that putting a CC marker on the Location has any detrimental effects at this point.
Yes, this seems to be the convention for some of us - to place a CC counter as a reminder, but its not actually required by rule.
 

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Doug, I think the problem here is that it is not a Melee location yet. The gun crew kept concealment and did not attack, and the attacker's CC attack was ineffective.


Wouldn't a CC counter already be there, since the enemy unit advanced into the Location? I guess I'm not sure when or if CC counters are placed. Is that only for Berserk/Human Wave/Banzai charges?


Very interesting. So in this situation, the gun crew could shoot at the enemy squad in the PFPh, the squad could shoot at the crew in the DFPh, and assuming the crew isn't pinned, it could leave the hex in the APh? If the crew breaks in the DFPh it could rout out of the hex?
CC markers are usually placed at only specific times and having advanced into a concealed enemy's Location isn't one of them nor is conducting a CC attack vs a concealed unit that retains concealment and fails to remove the concealment. The reason for this is A7.212 Target Selection Limits apply to all units beneath a CC marker. This is simply not the case should the gun crew retain concealment as both unit (friendly and enemy) would be free to fire outside the Location until such time as the gun crew lost its concealment.
 

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Wouldn't a CC counter already be there, since the enemy unit advanced into the Location? I guess I'm not sure when or if CC counters are placed. Is that only for Berserk/Human Wave/Banzai charges?
Some players do place CC counters when advancing into an enemy-occupied Location, but the rules do not call for it in that situation. They do call for it in several situation where enemy units end up in the same Location during the MPh, with "Berserk/Human Wave/Banzai charges" being some of those...


Very interesting. So in this situation, the gun crew could shoot at the enemy squad in the PFPh, the squad could shoot at the crew in the DFPh, and assuming the crew isn't pinned, it could leave the hex in the APh? If the crew breaks in the DFPh it could rout out of the hex?
Well, technically, it you have that CC counter in place - it could not advance....

A4.7:
"Infantry units which are neither broken, pinned, TI, nor marked with a CC counter may use the APh to move one hex ..."

So if you place/leave the CC counter in situations like these - you have to remember that that particular CC counter does not apply to A4.7.
 

MajorDomo

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CC markers are usually placed at only specific times and having advanced into a concealed enemy's Location isn't one of them nor is conducting a CC attack vs a concealed unit that retains concealment and fails to remove the concealment. The reason for this is A7.212 Target Selection Limits apply to all units beneath a CC marker. This is simply not the case should the gun crew retain concealment as both unit (friendly and enemy) would be free to fire outside the Location until such time as the gun crew lost its concealment.

I do not see how the concealed gun crew could fire at a target outside its hex as it can TPBF with inherent firepower at the unconcealed enemy squad in its hex.
 

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I did a search of the eRulebook for the phrase "CC counter". Here's the results:

A

3.8 CLOSE COMBAT PHASE (CCPh): Units of both sides occupying
the same Location resolve their CC attacks; any survivors which have not
withdrawn are considered in Melee. The ATTACKER places a “?” counter
on any of his eligible unconcealed units as per 12.12-.122. Remove all TI/Pin
counters. Flip CC counters over to Melee side or remove them.

4.7 ADVANCE PHASE: Infantry units which are neither broken, pinned,
TI, nor marked with a CC counter may use the APh to move one hex hori-
zontally or vertically (to a different ADJACENT building level Location of
the same hex) but not both. A unit may not change both its Location within
a hex and also the hex it is in during the same APh although it could change
both elevation and hex in an APh by advancing to an adjacent hex of different
elevation such as a hill or Depression. The one hex advance may even be from
inside an entrenchment to inside another in an Accessible hex (even if on dif-
ferent levels). A unit’s IPC is unchanged during the APh except as restricted
by Difficult Terrain (4.72).

7.211 TPBF vs PRC: Any PRC not BU in a CT AFV which are in an enemy-
occupied hex are subject to TPBF attacks from enemy units in that Location
or any higher Location in that hex, regardless of whether or not the PRC dis-
embark (see also D6.5). Halftrack Passengers and OT AFV crews are subject
to such an attack even if not CE, but receive the +2 CE DRM (D5.31). The
Moving units [EXC: BU PRC] may attack first as part of an OVR or in turn
during their AFPh with both Area and TPBF if they are able to. Any survi-
vors are not considered held in Melee until after the CCPh (PRC of Mobile
vehicles are never held in Melee; 11.71) and are marked with a CC counter
once the vehicle ends its MPh in that Location and are therefore able to rout
away in the RtPh.

8.31 FINAL PROTECTIVE FIRE (FPF): FPF is a Subsequent
First Fire option available only to DEFENDING Infantry already
marked with a Final Fire counter 13 which wish to use their Small
Arms [EXC: MOL]/MG/IFE to attack ADJACENT or same-hex
moving ground units in the ATTACKER’s MPh. All usable MG/IFE pos-
sessed by that unit (up to the unit’s normal operation capabilities; 7.35-.353)
must be fired (even if not previously marked with a Final Fire counter) and are
subject to Sustained Fire penalties. A unit using FPF may form a FG with
units not using FPF, but only those units using FPF are affected by its adverse
affects. FPF is a combination of Area Fire and PBF (or TPBF), and also in-
volves considerable risk to the firer. Immediately after normally resolving the
FPF attack vs the moving units, the firer’s Original IFT DR is modified only
by any applicable leadership DRM and is used as a NMC against the firing
unit(s) using FPF (including any directing leader). Whenever a Casualty MC
(10.31) or Heat of Battle (15.1) applies to this NMC and ≥ 2 units are involved,
use Random Selection to determine which unit is affected. The target of the
FPF attack is attacked normally even if the FPF DR also breaks or pins the
firer. Provided it does not break, there is no limit to the number of FPF attacks
a unit may make, other than the number of moving units and the MF they ex-
pend (as in 9.2) moving ADJACENT to or in the firer’s hex (thus affording the
DEFENDER the opportunity to attack them). Any MG/IFE possessed by a
unit using FPF is marked with a Final Fire counter regardless of its ROF—
even if it had not fired previously in that MPh. Units broken by FPF in a Loca-
tion containing enemy units are eligible to rout out in the ensuing RtPh. After
a TPBF FPF attack, all non-Meleeing co-occupants of that Location are
marked with a CC counter to show that they are not yet in Melee.

Comprehensive Rout Example: The broken squad in S2 must rout because of the unbroken KEU in its own Loca-
tion. Its only option is to enter S3 and move upstairs to Level 1 since it cannot remain
ADJACENT to the unbroken KEU in S2 (whose CC counter is removed once the
broken unit leaves its Location). It cannot use Rowhouse Bypass to enter R3 because
that would entail moving closer to the KEUs it remembers seeing in J6.

12.151 BYPASS: A unit concealed in woods/building terrain does
not necessarily lose that status due to an opposing Infantry unit us-
ing Bypass in that hex. The opposing Infantry unit must actually
attempt to occupy the concealed unit’s obstacle and Location (not
using Bypass) to cause loss of concealment. However, should Defensive Fire,
the presence of other unknown units in the planned exit hex, or other unfore-
seen circumstances force a Bypass Infantry unit (or any other Infantry unit
which legally ends its MPh in the same Location) to end its MPh prematurely
in the Bypass Location with a concealed enemy unit, all concealment in that
Location is lost. The previously concealed DEFENDING unit(s) may use
TPBF against any units in the same Location and is also entitled to [EXC: if
the targets are already pinned; 7.83] a -2 First Fire DRM for both FFNAM
and FFMO unless the Bypass is through other than Open Ground (such as
I9-H8 in 2I9). This FFMO DRM and the lack of TEM apply to units in an
obstacle Location only if they were in the act of Bypass therein when First
Fired upon (e.g., a berserk unit entering the same Location in non-Bypass
mode would be subject only to FFNAM and the normal TEM of that Loca-
tion). If the Bypassing unit cannot enter the Bypassed Location (e.g., a Forti-
fied Building Location containing an enemy squad), the unit is forced back to
the last previously occupied Location it may enter. During Final Fire the mov-
ing units would be entitled to full TEM for the obstacle and may attack in turn
during their AFPh (Area & TPBF) if they are able. Any survivors are not
considered held in Melee until after the CCPh and are therefore able to rout
away in the RtPh. Mark the stack with a CC counter to indicate that Melee
rules do not yet apply. Any AFV using VBM in the hex can be attacked using
Reaction Fire (D7.2).

13.61 POST-RESOLUTION: After resolving its Charge attack, Cavalry
may remain mounted in its current hex, dismount, or enter another Location
(even declaring another Charge against that Location), provided it has suffi-
cient MF remaining to do so. If it remains in an enemy-occupied Location, it
is not yet considered in Melee (although it may attack and can be attacked in
the upcoming CCPh) and should be marked with a CC counter. A unit that
declared a Charge in its MPh may not attack, etc., during the ensuing AFPh
even if currently dismounted, and at the end of its MPh is marked with a Prep
Fire counter as a reminder of its status.

15.432 A berserk unit must enter a Known enemy occupied Loca-
tion during the MPh if it has sufficient MF and, as such, may pos-
sibly force any DEFENDING Infantry therein to attack them with
FPF. If the only Known enemy unit is a lone SMC, a berserk MMC
will immediately conduct an Infantry OVR (4.15) with neither the NTC nor
increased MF normally required and without the option of the SMC entering
a new hex. The berserk unit may also attack with TPBF during its AFPh, but
this TPBF is halved due to taking place in the AFPh. Survivors are not yet
held in Melee, and the stack is marked with a CC counter to indicate this. Be-
cause a berserk unit must charge in its MPh, it may never fire during its
PFPh—even if ADJACENT to the Location it must charge. However, it may
fire during its AFPh (not Opportunity Fire) and DFPh/opponent’s MPh. A
berserk unit does not take prisoners. Berserk units are always Lax (11.18) in
CC.

25.233 ENEMY UNITS: If a Forward Location enterable by a HW Unit is devoid
of armed, friendly units and contains an armed, Known, non-Disrupted enemy
unit, the HW Unit must move to that Location, or to another enterable Location
that contains either a Known enemy unit or a pillbox occupied by such a unit. Once
any HW Unit enters such a Location during an Impulse, the Location is no longer
devoid of friendly units, freeing other HW Units from the requirement to enter that
Location during that Impulse. Upon entry of an enemy-occupied Location, mark
all units with a CC counter. If a Location entered contains one enemy SMC only,
Infantry OVR (4.15) is automatic without a NTC and with normal (non-doubled)
MF cost, and the SMC cannot move to another Location. If the Location contains
Disrupted/Unarmed enemy units, 19.12 and/or 20.54 apply at the end of the Im-
pulse.

D

7.21 CC REACTION FIRE: Each Infantry/Cavalry DE-
FENDER unit that is unbroken, unpinned and neither Unarmed
(A20.5) nor in Melee may attempt CC Reaction Fire, using the
CC-vs-vehicle rules (A11.5, etc.; see also 7.211-.213) [EXC: Am-
bush is NA unless using Street Fighting; 7.211]. After completing its at-
tack, that DEFENDER and all of its possessed SW (including those Inher-
ent) and Guns are marked with a CC counter, if the vehicle has survived,
to prohibit non-CC Reaction Fire attacks, and also with a First or Final
Fire counter as appropriate for that attack. To attempt CC Reaction Fire vs
an AFV, the DEFENDER must first pass a PAATC unless it is exempt
from PAATC (A11.6) or took one when the AFV entered its Location ear-
lier in the MPh (A12.41). If it fails the Reaction Fire PAATC, it becomes
pinned and can neither make that CC Reaction Fire attack (7.213) nor opt
to make a Non-CC Reaction Fire attack (7.22) instead. A DEFENDER
need not pass more than one PAATC to attack the same vehicle more than
once during the same (A.15) phase.

7.22 EX: The BU tank expends one MP to enter 1E3. The 4-4-7 and 8-1 in D2 then declare
a Street Fighting CC Reaction Fire attack (7.211) vs it as their Defensive First Fire. The
4-4-7 passes its PAATC, and both units enter E3 where (after surviving all attacks by
mines in D2/E3 and Residual-FP/FFE in E3, if any) they make their Reaction Fire CC
attack. Their combined CCV is 6, but there is a +2 DRM because the vehicle is Non-
Stopped (A11.51) and a -2 DRM due to leadership and Ambush, so the AFV will be im-
mobilized on an Original DR of 6, eliminated on an Original DR of 4 or 5, and burned
on an Original DR of ≤ 3. However, the DR is ≥ 7 so the attack fails. The 4-4-7 and
8-1, now marked with both a First Fire and a CC counter, return to D2 (again assum-
ing they survive all mine/FFE/Residual-FP attacks as they attempt to do so), and the
tank expends another MP to enter D3 where it is safe from Street Fighting since all AD-
JACENT Russian units are marked with First Fire counters. Next it enters C3 at a cost
of 11 MP (7 MP for entering woods, plus an additional 4 MP [ 1 / 4 of its MP allotment;
FRU]) to make an OVR, for a total MP expenditure of 13 thus far in its MPh [Note: the
12.5 MP in the illustration is prior to FRU]. It passes a Bog DR and attacks the 6-2-8
with 20 FP on the IFT (11 [FP] × 3 [TPBF] = 33 ÷ 2 [Bounding First Fire] = 16 1 /2 + 4
[MA base] = 20 1/2) and a +1 DRM (woods TEM). This attack has no effect vs the 6-2-
8, which then passes a PAATC in order to use CC Reaction Fire. Because the 6-2-8 is
already marked with a First Fire counter it must reduce its CCV by one due to making
a CC Reaction Fire attack as Subsequent First Fire. There is a +2 DRM to its attack (vs
a Non-Stopped vehicle), so the tank can be affected only by an Original DR of 2 which
will immobilize it or allow the possibility of an Unlikely Kill (A11.501). The tank, with
one MP remaining, decides to enter B2 and remain in Motion rather than chance CC
with the 6-2-8 in the upcoming CCPh. The 6-2-8 is marked with both Final Fire and CC
counters.

E

1.13 ZERO NVR: When a unit’s NVR is 0, all Locations except the one
occupied by that unit are beyond its NVR [EXC: as per 1.101]. When-
ever a moving ATTACKER whose NVR is zero attempts to move into a
concealed DEFENDER’s Location (A12.15), it would not be returned to
its just exited Location but would be vulnerable to TPBF from that DE-
FENDER. If so attacked, it cannot leave that Location; mark the units with
a CC counter.

7.226 EX: Two British FB with no bombs are placed on top of three bomb-laden Stukas dur-
ing the British CCPh. The British player designates that his planes will attack separate
targets. The first British plane rolls an Original 7 DR (with 1 on the colored dr), result-
ing in a Final DR of 5 (7 -1 [target is not a FB] -1 [target has bombs] = 5) which Dam-
ages Stuka “A”. Having retained his ROF, the FB attacks again—choosing to attack the
Damaged Stuka “A” again to receive an additional -1 DRM, and rolls an Original 8 for
a Final DR of 5 which eliminates Stuka “A”. Having retained his ROF yet again, the
FB now attacks Stuka “C” but rolls a 12, thereby disabling its MG and giving Stuka
“C” a Recall Option. The British player would like to attack Stuka “C” with his other
FB before that Stuka can escape at the end of the CCPh, but is unable to do so now
because his initial attack was predesignated against Stuka “B”. He must attack Stuka
“B” at least once before switching targets to Stuka “C”. However, his Original Aerial
Combat DR is a 9, resulting in no effect and failure to retain his ROF. The German
may now return fire with the two surviving Stukas but is subject to a +2 DRM to both
attacks, and his Original DR of 4 and 7 fail to have any effect. The CCPh is now over
and the CC counter is flipped to the Melee side. The British player, because he is not
opposed by FB, may leave Melee but chooses not to. Instead he Recalls only the FB
with the Disabled MG. The German chooses not to Recall Stuka “C” and consequently
the two German Stukas will be allowed to attack the remaining FB first in their CCPh.

G

G.4 DETECTION: A12.15/A12.41 does not necessarily apply when, dur-
ing its MPh, an ATTACKER unit enters a jungle, kunai, or bamboo Lo-
cation whose occupying unit(s) consist(s) only of hidden, Stealthy Infantry
DEFENDER(S), none of which is in a pillbox/building or manning a hidden
Gun. The DEFENDER player has the choice of invoking A12.15/A12.41 (as
applicable), of having all such DEFENDER units in that Location automati-
cally retain their HIP status (though they can still be revealed by Searching;
A12.152), or of having ≥ one of them attack the moving ATTACKER using
TPBF on the IFT (/using Reaction Fire as allowed). Unless pinned before-
hand, the MPh of each ATTACKER Infantry unit thusly attacked ends after
all attacks vs it prompted by its entry MF expenditure have been resolved. If
the ATTACKER unit ends its MPh in that now-revealed DEFENDER’s Lo-
cation, a CC counter is placed therein. In all cases, the A12.15 provisions for
removing a Dummy ATTACKER remain in effect, and A11.19 applies un-
changed at the start of the CCPh; however, whenever a hidden unit is placed
onboard as per A11.19, an Ambush can occur.

G4.123 A T-H Hero making a Banzai Charge does not have his Morale Level in-
creased by one, and must move individually (i.e., as part of neither a stack nor
a multi-unit Impulse). During his Charge he may enter an enemy-occupied
hex only if it contains his Designated Target or is ADJACENT to that Target.
A T-H Hero who is in his Designated Target’s Location during his MPh may
make a CC attack vs it at that time, provided he has survived all Defensive
First Fire allowed against him by his immediately previous MF expenditure;
that Location is then marked with a CC counter. A T-H Hero who is ADJA-
CENT to his Designated Target at the start of his APh must advance into that
Target’s Location if able to do so.

ASOP

3.41A Non-Bypassing Good Order Infantry/Cavalry may Search
(A12.152; E1.95/1.953; G1.63) {Casualties; A12.154}; becomes
TI—Defensive First/Subsequent First/FPF allowed. Broken Infan-
try in Bypass enter that obstacle (A4.32). Sewer unit/stack makes
emergence dr (B8.42). Unarmed unit(s) may attempt to Scrounge
Small Arms (A20.552; G17.14). Place Motion counter on qualifying
vehicle(s) (D2.4) or expend Stop MP. Place CC counter if necessary.
Lastly, go to Step 3.21A.

OVR FLOWCHART

All units are marked with a CC counter and are bound by TPBF
Target Selection Limits (A7.212) [EXC: vs Unknown unit or unar-
mored vehicle with no Vulnerable PRC]
 

Robin Reeve

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I've often wondered when we'd reach the point where one could reconstruct the entire rulebook based on snippets that people have posted online. I think that last post put us over :)
Definitely a pain, when they copy-paste the pdf eASLRB without editing the text to remove the end line jumps... 🤪
 

Stewart

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Some players do place CC counters when advancing into an enemy-occupied Location, but the rules do not call for it in that situation. They do call for it in several situation where enemy units end up in the same Location during the MPh, with "Berserk/Human Wave/Banzai charges" being some of those...

Well, technically, it you have that CC counter in place - it could not advance....

A4.7:
"Infantry units which are neither broken, pinned, TI, nor marked with a CC counter may use the APh to move one hex ..."

So if you place/leave the CC counter in situations like these - you have to remember that that particular CC counter does not apply to A4.7.
Wouldn't it behoove players to mark hexes that units had ADV into with an enemy unit to prevent an erroneous ADV out forgetting they had already advanced in? I think that might be the trigger. 🤔
 

klasmalmstrom

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Wouldn't it behoove players to mark hexes that units had ADV into with an enemy unit to prevent an erroneous ADV out forgetting they had already advanced in? I think that might be the trigger. 🤔
Sure, if they have trouble remembering what units have advances and which have not.....never had that issue myself....if I see a unit in a Location with an enemy unit then odds are it has already advanced....otherwise is had ended up there in the MPh, and should most likely already (by the rules) be marked with a CC counter....
 

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If you can't remember which units have moved/advanced and end up moving/advancing them again, probably should stick to VASL because it marks them as you go.
 

Eagle4ty

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If you can't remember which units have moved/advanced and end up moving/advancing them again, probably should stick to VASL because it marks them as you go.
At my age I'm lucky to remember what game I'm playing let alone where all my guys are if I've moved them into an enemy hex. I need all the help I can get.
 

Kijug

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Another option I've sometimes used is to use tile spacers (small plastic Xs, https://duckduckgo.com/?q="tile+spacer") to mark units. They're cheap and easy to pick up.
If you have SASL counters, I use the "Move" counters as needed to mark "complicated" moves; often when I move a unit here and then another unit there and come back...and try to recall what units I've moved initially. Most folks I know rotate the counters.
 

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Oct 29, 2003
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Location
Guada La Habra
Country
llUnited States
I have seen players 1/8th turn the 1/2" counters in the MPh and then back to straight in the APh. Doesn't help with vehicles.
 
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