Close Combat vs. a wagon towing a gun

Hovned31

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While playing BFT125, I had a 1-2-7 partisan HS in CC with a wagon in open ground towing a gun with a 2-2-8 crew. Neither myself or my opponent had encountered CC vs a wagon before. We decided to apply non-sequential CC vs a vehicle with the -3 for unarmored vehicle, -1 for no manned usable MG to my CCV value of 3. My opponent argued that if he survived to return fire, his 2-2-8 would not suffer from mounted fire as they weren't in the wagon since the wagon towing the gun filled up the carrying capacity of the wagon (I don't think this is correct but neither of us use wagons much less wagons towing guns often so we weren't certain). Also, since the wagon uses MF not MP it doesn't get motion modifier, correct? The attack DR was a "2" which eliminated the wagon, gun and crew and did not leave a wreck (burning or otherwise). Did we play this correctly?
 

Doug Leslie

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While playing BFT125, I had a 1-2-7 partisan HS in CC with a wagon in open ground towing a gun with a 2-2-8 crew. Neither myself or my opponent had encountered CC vs a wagon before. We decided to apply non-sequential CC vs a vehicle with the -3 for unarmored vehicle, -1 for no manned usable MG to my CCV value of 3. My opponent argued that if he survived to return fire, his 2-2-8 would not suffer from mounted fire as they weren't in the wagon since the wagon towing the gun filled up the carrying capacity of the wagon (I don't think this is correct but neither of us use wagons much less wagons towing guns often so we weren't certain). Also, since the wagon uses MF not MP it doesn't get motion modifier, correct? The attack DR was a "2" which eliminated the wagon, gun and crew and did not leave a wreck (burning or otherwise). Did we play this correctly?
Hard to believe that you have never encountered CC against a wagon before. :)
If the wagon is towing a gun, the crew are presumably being carried as passengers on the wagon. Wagons have a PP capacity of fifteen and, even allowing for the ammo PP capacity reduction of 4/8 (depending on gun size), that still leaves sufficient capacity to transport the crew with its PP cost of five.
The CC modifiers for the attack on the wagon should have a modifer of +1 for the crew which is treated as escorting personnel. The final modifer after applying the modifers for the unarmored target and lack of a machine gun is -3. Any return fire is treated as mounted fire as if the crew were truck passengers and will receive a modifier of +2.
Instead of destroying the wagon and the towed gun, you could have attempted to capture it. This would entail capturing the passengers with a -1 modifier (-2 for CC v passengers and +1 for capture attempt).
In your game, the modifier for personnel escort would make no difference to the result.
 
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Doug Leslie

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I should add that the CC should have been sequential. You say that you treated it as non-sequential but it appears that you might actually have carried it out sequentially based on the description of what happened.

Also, wagons can have motion status which would affect the CC modifier, per the following Q&A:

D2.4, D2.401, D12.1 & E11.535

Can a wagon counter be marked with a Motion counter?

A. Yes.

Assuming yes, what is the mechanic for placing/removing the Motion counter absent the expenditure of a MP, does the player just say his wagon stops or remains in Motion and places the counter (or not) accordingly? Can this only happen during the MPh?

A. The player simply states that the wagon will remain In Motion and places a Motion counter – otherwise it is assumed to Stop. Wagons may make Motion Attempts (D2.401).
 

Hovned31

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Thanks for the explanation. We did the CC sequentially don't know why I typed non-sequential. First CC against a wagon in the almost 30 years I've played this game!
 

Doug Leslie

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That’s cool, why not. Except a thought vehicles in motion can’t be captured. Unless a wagon ain’t a vehicle, hmmmm
Wagons are treated treated as unarmored vehicle targets when attacked, so capture would not be allowed if it is in motion.

The Q&A creates an odd situation since wagons don’t expend MF to stop and start. You might as well leave a motion counter on them permanently unless you really need passenger FP to be halved instead of quartered, which seems unlikely.
 
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Eagle4ty

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Wagons are treated treated as unarmored vehicle targets when attacked, so capture would not be allowed if it is in motion.

The Q&A creates an odd situation since wagons don’t expend MF to stop and start. You might as well leave a motion counter on them permanently unless you really need passenger FP to be halved instead of quartered, which seems unlikely.
Because a Wagon (or sledge) uses MF as opposed to MP and because it does not expend a Start or Stop MF expenditure, I don't believe one can leave them In-Motion. Since they do not expend such MFs for such I believe this is an exception as specified in D12.1...References to MP expenditures/requirements apply equally to the MF of horse-drawn transport unless specified otherwise.

2.4 MOTION STATUS: Any Mobile vehicle (including a boat or amphibian) which has used its entire printed MP allotment during its MPh, without expending a MP to Stop (2.13) or Delay (2.17) at the end of that MPh, is considered in Motion and covered with a Motion counter.
 

Doug Leslie

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Because a Wagon (or sledge) uses MF as opposed to MP and because it does not expend a Start or Stop MF expenditure, I don't believe one can leave them In-Motion. Since they do not expend such MFs for such I believe this is an exception as specified in D12.1...References to MP expenditures/requirements apply equally to the MF of horse-drawn transport unless specified otherwise.

2.4 MOTION STATUS: Any Mobile vehicle (including a boat or amphibian) which has used its entire printed MP allotment during its MPh, without expending a MP to Stop (2.13) or Delay (2.17) at the end of that MPh, is considered in Motion and covered with a Motion counter.
That would certainly have been my reading of the rules. The Q&A says otherwise!
 

Michael R

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I also have never seen CC versus a wagon. Heck, I could probably count scenarios that I have played with wagons on two hands.
 

johnl

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ASL Scenario Archive comes up with 89 Wagon scenarios, so about 1.5% of total scenarios.
 
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