-1 TEM on Bridge

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'Ol Fezziwig,

I'm at a loss to understand your contention of inconsistency with pontoons; pontoons are also subject to the -1, yet regardless of LOS. Given the lack of abutments on pontoons, this is entirely reasonable
Based upon precedential application of -1 TEM in ASL, -1 TEM is not supposed to represent a lack of cover. It's supposed to represent an inherent aspect of the terrain that makes it more dangerous beyond lack of obstacles to block fire. Does a pontoon have an inherent lack of ability to absorb shock, for example?

Disturbance I'll grant, some scenarios may become less balanced (yet, once again, no mention is made of scenarios which may slide more comfortably towards becoming 'balanced'), the result of this errata is not solely the unbalancing of pre-existing scenarios; attempts to paint it as such are misleading and incomplete examinations of the potential effects.
I don't believe you take the time to read the arguments that are presented. The balance argument has never been "bridge crossings are now all unbalanced". As has been stated several times now, the issue is the fact known scenario balance has *changed* to an unknown state, of which neither you or I know. It's the discarding of balance knowledge to a state of unfamiliarity which is the issue.

For example, for all you really know, many or most (not some) scenarios could become less balanced. Nobody knows for sure.
 

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Based upon precedential application of -1 TEM in ASL, -1 TEM is not supposed to represent a lack of cover. It's supposed to represent an inherent aspect of the terrain that makes it more dangerous beyond lack of obstacles to block fire. Does a pontoon have an inherent lack of ability to absorb shock, for example?
Boulevards, Runways, hazardous movement...all represent open areas devoid of cover and/or increased vulnerability therein. Increased lethality of fire in these terrains (excluding HM) is acknowledged within the -1. A bridge shares this effect by the constriction inherent in its use.
A pontoon does not share any increased lethality effect in a similiar manner as boulevards/runways, though it does share the restrictive funneling effect of moving in line down a narrowly defined, easily massed upon feature.

I don't believe you take the time to read the arguments that are presented.
Then I believe you are in a true minority. If you objectively look at how these arguments are presented and couched, you will notice I only ask that both sides and all possible permutations of the errata be considered and slanting (or omitting/dismissing) something for effect be avoided to at least all discussion to take place on common ground.

The balance argument has never been "bridge crossings are now all unbalanced".
I beg to differ; many examples of just this point of view has been stated. I merely point this out in concert with my intentions stated above. Comments like that are more emotional, said out of frustration, than any real belief, I believe. However, it is a part of the journey along the path of examination.

As has been stated several times now, the issue is the fact known scenario balance has *changed* to an unknown state, of which neither you or I know. It's the discarding of balance knowledge to a state of unfamiliarity which is the issue.
True enough, and a position I have been advocating for nigh on 50 pages! Unfamiliarity is not a reason to excoriate the TEM, it is equally not a reason to embrace it. How on earth can anyone attempt to state definitively one way or the other in the face of pure speculation?


For example, for all you really know, many or most (not some) scenarios could become less balanced. Nobody knows for sure.
Exactly! Yet, notice once more, the wording of your supposition belies prejudice. Making it personal by shunting it entirely on my shoulders or adding the qualifier of "Nobody knows for sure" cannot mask that. I have never once said the balance issue was going to be universally pro or con; I have said the effects will vary depending on so many variables, that the extremist point of view presented is untenable in the long run. I have willingly embraced the countering view to mine own, I merely choose not to accept it based on insufficient returns. Perhaps you should draw a fresh cup of cafe' and take the time to read this whole novella to see of what I speak.
 

Calimero

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The -1TEM of runways is explained as being a consequence of the nature of the ground on runways, susceptible to have a schrnarpell effect for rounds and ricochet for bullets, hence being more lethal. I fail to remember if the justification for wide boulevards is the same. I suspect their wideness is reflected more by the inability to Street Fight or Dash rather than the -1TEM, but this has to be checked in the footnotes.
So the 'reality' justification of the bridge TEM is apparently of a different nature.

I find it hard to understand why the funneling effect of a bridge justifies a -1TEM, and why the pontoon (by nature even narrower than the bridge, and absolutely devoided of cover) should be 0TEM.

As for the detrimental effect of the new TEM I fully agree with you it cannot be assessed as of now. However, we do know it exists. I confess I still fail to see the benefits of introducing this change, as compared to its detrimental effects.
 

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Larry said:
I will assome that no one played these scenarios with the -1 bridge. According to ROAR this morning (...)
Larry,
What was your point to begin with ?
You wanted 5 scenarios that could possibly be impacted. I provided 5 . That these five were to be perfectly balanced according to ROAR was not part of you specification.
The new TEM will change things. For some scenarios, it is good news. For others, it is not. Anyway, it skews the balance towards the side that does not crosses the bridge under fire - i.e. this change does not have the effect of tightening the balance towards 50, but only to skew the balance towards the defending side.
Having to automatically offer balance to one side after considering the new TEM is as weird as issueing a blanket SSR on pre-J7 scenarios.

PS:actually, I am still under the doubt that Globus raid has any bridges at all:surprise: . I can't remember whether the Partisan's movements are hindered by a stream or by a line of wire. This one might well be a complete brain fart from my side ...:nuts:

Rgds,
jp
 

'Ol Fezziwig

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I find it hard to understand why the funneling effect of a bridge justifies a -1TEM, and why the pontoon (by nature even narrower than the bridge, and absolutely devoided of cover) should be 0TEM.
Pontoons are subject to the -1; their inclusion being just prior to the insertion of the errata into the paragraph.
 

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'Ol Fezziwig,

Boulevards, Runways, hazardous movement...all represent open areas devoid of cover and/or increased vulnerability therein. Increased lethality of fire in these terrains (excluding HM) is acknowledged within the -1.
The -1 TEM for runway was *not* incorporated because it's an open area devoid of cover. It was incorporated because of the lack of shock absorption and increased risk of ricochet due to the nature of runway asphault. See the Runway terrain notes at the back of Chapter B.

Again, "open areas devoid of cover" are intended to be covered by Open Ground. That is what OG is supposed to be.

How on earth can anyone attempt to state definitively one way or the other in the face of pure speculation?
Using logical reason, there is no speculation to the fact bridge scenario balance will be altered in a (currently) unknown way due to this rule change. The change doesn't justify discarding previous ROAR knowledge for no improvement in game play.

I have said the effects will vary depending on so many variables, that the extremist point of view presented is untenable in the long run.
The "many variables" is a "straw man" argument. Just because there are many random elements which determine the final results of an ASL scenario doesn't mean there isn't a monitorable statistical effect to ultimate scenario balance which can be traced to the -1 bridge TEM (particularly with respect to Resid. Fire). This -1 TEM will alter the statistics of bridge crossing scenarios; there is no doubt about that.

Perhaps you should draw a fresh cup of cafe' and take the time to read this whole novella to see of what I speak.
Perhaps you should take some time in your novella contribution to actually justify support for the -1 TEM rule change, instead of just building counter-arguments against its resistance. Seems like most who have accepted it have been doing so based on biased interpretations of reality arguments, biased acceptance of which is the most correct source of the bridge TEM rules, and "because Perry is the never-can-do-wrong rules God".
 

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The -1 TEM for runway was *not* incorporated because it's an open area devoid of cover. It was incorporated because of the lack of shock absorption and increased risk of ricochet due to the nature of runway asphault. See the Runway terrain notes at the back of Chapter B.
Explain board 38. (I'm assuming this is the one with the dirt strip) Not much in the way asphalt yet equally vulnerable to a -1 TEM.
In any event, the assignation of a -1 to bridges in no way implies lineage back to either runways or boulevards. I choose to view it as a 'mini-hazardous movement modifier' rather than some foggy absorbtion/ricochet paradigm.

Again, "open areas devoid of cover" are intended to be covered by Open Ground. That is what OG is supposed to be.
sheesh...runways...boulevards, both ARE, in fact, open areas devoid of cover AND additionally typically lacking the gentle undulations in them (due, no doubt to the arrogant efforts of man to subjugate nature) considered part and parcel of "Open Ground". I hesitate to mention this, but this is the sort of rationale that has morphed into nearly (over 60, if you count Jay's parallel thread) pages. I shouldn't have to defend or define terrain features. The features mentioned above, as well as bridges of all makes, are features that infantry usually fear to tread; they cross them rather than occupy them. A bridge conveniently offers the defender of it one single exit point from it AND a rather confined area upon it. The TEM reflects this rather nicely; subtle and elegant.

Using logical reason, there is no speculation to the fact bridge scenario balance will be altered in a (currently) unknown way due to this rule change. The change doesn't justify discarding previous ROAR knowledge for no improvement in game play.
I don't think it should be discarded out of hand, I also don't think it should used as The Golden Rule, either. Whatever side of the fence one may find themselves, the simple fact remains that the TEM will have an effect on play. On this we agree. Where we part is in the extent of the effect. I do not feel there will be a sea change requiring the pre- and post errata era. Whatever the range of movement, I feel the game will adapt and be better for it.

The "many variables" is a "straw man" argument. .
I find it humourous that when the "straw man" makes his appearance, it is usually to dismiss a point one finds inconvenient to address.

Just because there are many random elements which determine the final results of an ASL scenario doesn't mean there isn't a monitorable statistical effect to ultimate scenario balance which can be traced to the -1 bridge TEM (particularly with respect to Resid. Fire). This -1 TEM will alter the statistics of bridge crossing scenarios; there is no doubt about that
Are we to presume that the very next playing of Urban Guerillas resulting in a German win is strictly attributable to J7? The presence or absence of a single TEM, modifier, low/high DR at the right/wrong time does not subvert the viability of ASL in any way. Balance, whatever that really is, cannot be solely compromised by the TEM of a single hex. There is no way I am going to even attempt to present a list of things that would ameliorate, negate, heighten or in any other way effect the outcome of a scenario beyond a mere -1 TEM. Perhaps if I had to choose a single one, it would be time. If forced to rush a bridge before the defenders were suppressed or the crossing hindered in some way, the additional -1 is going to be a b*tch, no doubt. But, everyone being aware of the TEM means that not only will the defender be aware of this, but the attacker will as well and will be proactive in his efforts ahead of any contact with the feature.
The knee-jerk reaction is most certainly going to be that every bridge scenario playing reported is going to be scrutinised through the prism of the bridge TEM only, whether or not it was a major factor in the outcome or not. How is that in any way "monitorable" absent a definitive statement (which, coincidentally, ROAR lacks) regarding the TEM from one or both players? Is every bridge scenario suddenly captive to the odious effects of this TEM solely? Are they beholden not to superior play or any other aspect of ASL perhaps owing existence to hay? I don't think so.
Ultimately the TEM is just another ASL factor to deal with and minimise.

Perhaps you should take some time in your novella contribution to actually justify support for the -1 TEM rule change, instead of just building counter-arguments against its resistance.
Perhaps you should check back a bit; I have done this. It is difficult to do so when apparently, it is ignored in the noise.
Though, through counter-points, highlighting misleading claims, errors or asking for content rather than emotion or slant, one can see the seeds of the support; one needs but to open one's eyes.

Seems like most who have accepted it have been doing so based on biased interpretations of reality arguments,
Upthread, I made a point based on the 'reality' versus 'abstraction' relation. It is still relevant to the discussion. Yet, conversely, those who oppose it choose to either acknowledge the reality of that particular point, usually just before dismissing it out of hand, or reach for the abstraction/effect rejoinder before claiming balance will be irreparably altered in one direction. (note the use of "usually" before taking aim).
Yet, stating the above quoted passage as such, implies it to be almost a dirty thing, a thing to be ashamed of. If you understand the symbiotic relationship between 'reality' and 'abstraction', you will realise it is not an insult to be in either camp and that they share the same ground.

biased acceptance of which is the most correct source of the bridge TEM rules,
Not true, both sides have acknowledged the ambiguity of the chart and rules, prior Q&A and pre- and post ASLRBv2 applicibility. This discussion has, for the most part, revolved civilly around the perceived reach of the TEM, not such trivial matters such as which part of the RB is more correct than the other. The chance that the TEM was a considered modification to the system has also been acknowledged, however grudgingly or (un-)likely some may feel it to be. The effect on existing scenarios, too, has been debated, with far more varied opinions on this particular aspect.
At this stage of the discussion, having laid out my personal reasons for the TEM, the natural progression is to counter points I feel in error, misleading, gross simplifications or out of context. I have also made a point to note those points I feel valid or well-made, whether I agree with them or not. To acknowledge the contrarian view is to strengthen one's own point; dismissing it simply because they dare differ lays bare the weakness of one's argument.

and "because Perry is the never-can-do-wrong rules God"
I have to assume you have come late into this thread, because this particular horse has already been ridden into the ground. I can assure you, noone has chosen to pin their tail on the infallibility of Perry, however careful he has shown to be in the past. Yet, I find no shame in stating my respect for Perry in any event...
 
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[quote='Ol Fezziwig]Explain board 38. (I'm assuming this is the one with the dirt strip) Not much in the way asphalt yet equally vulnerable to a -1 TEM.[/quote]
Actually, no. The board 38 'airstrip' is *not* a runway, and *not* subject to the -1. See below.

B7 said:
The following rules apply only to hard surface runways or SSR-designated wide city boulevards.
7.1 Any hex containing a gray road surface crossed by two parallel white lines (such as 14M6) is a runway hex
 

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Georgii2222 said:
Actually, no. The board 38 'airstrip' is *not* a runway, and *not* subject to the -1. See below.
mea culpa; I stand corrected. (vaguely recalling the discussion over the airstrip a while ago)
I do, however, stand by the "mini-hazardous movement modifier".
 

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[quote='Ol Fezziwig]mea culpa; I stand corrected. (vaguely recalling the discussion over the airstrip a while ago)
I do, however, stand by the "mini-hazardous movement modifier".[/quote]

Understood.

However: Let me start with the statement that I'll play it however it's ruled in the end, and if I were to play a bridge scenario right now (which I'm getting ready to), I'll play it with the errata in place, since them's the rules.

I may be rehashing what's been said over the last bazillion pages, but I think that to many players, this smacks of change for change's sake. Yes; there was an ambiguity between the divider and the rules, but it's *clearly* rarely been played as on the divider.

Now, I'm not usually a 'well, I've always played it that way' kind of guys, but this is a Big Deal for bridge crossing scenarios (blinding glimpse of the obvious), and when this was discussed, it certainly should have been taken into account, considering the amount of bridge crossing scenarios that have been published in the past, and were not playtested with the erraticized rule.

Yes, some, perhaps even most of the bridge crossing scenario's balance may be skewed towards being *more* balanced, but yet, they may not. We don't know. The whole point is this: Why, after all this time, change something that was known to an unknown.

I'll try not to say anything else on the subject. Lord knows this thread is long enough.

Ital
 

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Panjis on a Bridge

I think there may be another problem with the -1TEM if it's not seen as merely the -1FFMO of v1. See G9.1, "a unit above that Panji counter cannot claim bridge TEM." If fire is traced only along the road depiction, isn't this wording awkward? [I would gladly 'not claim' the -1TEM.) If the Bridge terrain can have an inherent aspect to its -1TEM, G9.1 should be erraticized, too.

(Yes, Chapter G is v.1. Should we keep applying all v.1 errata to Chapter G rules? That means that PTO scenarios have different bridges than ETO!)
 

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alanp said:
I think there may be another problem with the -1TEM if it's not seen as merely the -1FFMO of v1. See G9.1, "a unit above that Panji counter cannot claim bridge TEM." If fire is traced only along the road depiction, isn't this wording awkward? [I would gladly 'not claim' the -1TEM.) If the Bridge terrain can have an inherent aspect to its -1TEM, G9.1 should be erraticized, too.

(Yes, Chapter G is v.1. Should we keep applying all v.1 errata to Chapter G rules? That means that PTO scenarios have different bridges than ETO!)
Couldn't the bridge TEM be +1 when the LOF doesn't follow the road?
 

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Robin said:
Couldn't the bridge TEM be +1 when the LOF doesn't follow the road?

Yes, G9.1 could very well mean that you can't claim the +1 protective TEM when above a Panji. As written, the rule states "Bridge TEM", which will be either +1 or -1 depending on LOF. Why would Panji protect you in one case (LOF along road on bridge)? At a minimum, G9.1 will need "+1" inserted between 'bridge' and 'TEM'. Just pointing out another consequence of this Errata.
 
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alanp said:
Yes, G9.1 could very well mean that you can't claim the +1 protective TEM when above a Panji. As written, the rule states "Bridge TEM", which will be either +1 or -1 depeding on LOF. Why would Panji protect you in one case (LOF along road on bridge)? At a minimum, G9.1 will need "+1" inserted between 'bridge' and 'TEM'. Just pointing out another consequence of this Errata.
But it is an honor to recieve the -1 TEM!
It is the only way to earn a (posthumous of course) Victoria Cross.
So, this @#&% panji prevents your men to seek and reach the level of honour they deserve...:nuts:
 

'Ol Fezziwig

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alanp I think there may be another problem with the -1TEM if it's not seen as merely the -1FFMO of v1. See G9.1, "a unit above that Panji counter cannot claim bridge TEM." If fire is traced only along the road depiction, isn't this wording awkward? [I would gladly 'not claim' the -1TEM.) If the Bridge terrain can have an inherent aspect to its -1TEM, G9.1 should be erraticized, too.
The infrequency of bridges in PTO scenarios (most convert to fords) not withstanding, this is a good question. Given the only hexside a panji can be placed is the road/path hexside leading to a bridge, the panji hexside could just as easily be placed in the adjacent hex. The prohibition of bridge TEM is not granted units under the panji (similiar to wire).

Units moving from above to below a panji on a bridge, are in fact, vulnerable to a double jeopardy should they receive fire above the panji; they are becoming more vulnerable once they get below the panji triggering the -1 TEM for the residual attack.

A case could be made for either application; no TEM positive or negative or no positive TEM <since the above-panji units meet the LOS requirements of the -1 TEM>. It'd be interesting to see how this would shake out in the hopefully not-too-distant reprint of COB/GH.
 
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