What do you think some of the key battles for a Normandy game would be?

Michael Dorosh

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Seems you misquoted. ;)


"While it seems clear the lack of battle experience hampered our formations in Normandy, one must remark that, although some of the German divisions were subject to the same disability, it appears to have had a less serious effect on them. The 12th S.S. Panzer Division, which was responsible for many of our troubles, was formed only in 1943 and had never fought before 7 June 1944. (As we have seen, however, it did contain a high proportion of experienced officers and N.C.Os. It also had the advantage, after the first days of the campaign, of having a commander and a senior staff officer who had special knowledge of the theatre of operations, having exercised there with the 1 st S.S. Panzer Division in 1942.) There were other German divisions committed against us in Normandy which had not fought before and which nevertheless gave a good account of themselves. This may have been due in part to the fact that the German formations were on the defensive while ours were attacking, a more difficult role. Nevertheless, one suspects the Germans contrived to get more out of their training than we did. Perhaps their attitude towards such matters was less casual than ours."


C.P. Stacey, The Victory Campaign, p.277.
The quote is accurate - read the article. He was arguing that Stacey got it wrong with regards to the 12th SS.
 

Michael Dorosh

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First it was the Germans had unsound defense doctrine in Normandy, now it's the 12th SS limping out of Normandy with a handful of effectives!(usual rhetoric) So which is it?
Is there some reason that both can't be correct? Because they are. The reason the 12th SS limped out of Normandy with a handful of effectives (read Zetterling) was because of their bizarre defensive doctrine.

Any student of history can begin reading studies of the Normandy Campaign, from both sides, and start forming analysis of their own with that information. It's not rocket science. Given you keep on making these broad statements, I'm thinking you have read something(s) to form this idea in your head. My apologies, but I will have go with the several professional historians in print.
Start with the ones I just quoted and work your way out from there.

You keep on mixing strategic and tactical
I've done no such thing.

The 12th SS were a green division, never been in combat before the Normandy landings. Is it surprising they suffered because of that?
So was the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division; moreover, the 12th SS had a cadre - a large one - of LAH veterans. The 3rd had a tiny cadre of men with battle experience in North Africa.

The 12th SS got mauled in Op Charnwood? It would seem their attackers got mauled just a little bit more no?
Who was in possession of Abbey Ardennes, Caen, Carpiquet, Buron, Authie, Putot, et al at the end of it? Read the article above. Attacking was a dangerous proposition. The Allies were way better at it. At least they reached their objectives and held them. The 12th SS apparently never once managed to do it.

In addition to having failed to achieve their objectives, the Allies suffered ~ 2:1 more casualties and 5:1 more armor losses(various sources).
In Charnwood? I think we're talking about different battles at this point. Charnwood was a tactical success.

In the end, the HJ retreated across the Odon, with their heavy weapons, and established themselves on the high ground to the south - the Bourguébus and Verrières Ridges, where the Brits and Canadians would have to bleed themselves on all over again.
Show me a victory that didn't cost anything.

Also, a cursory read through a couple books says the 12th SS ran out of Normandy with anywhere from 10000-12000 effectives. You make the call whether that's a handful or not.
Read Zetterling; reinforcements and supply troops don't count for much. It mustered "no more than" 17,000 men at any one time, and suffered approximately 8,000 losses. Total write off of tanks to 9 July were 51 PzKpfw IV and 32 PzKpfw V. The reason the divisional casualty count wasn't higher was that "All the rear services were outside the area that would eventually be called the Falaise pocket" - butcher, baker, supply column, etc. Zetterling notes that some combat units were located with the rear services but that "most of its infantry were casualties." On 11 August, the division reported 17 PzKpfw IV, 7 PzKpfw V and 5 PzJ IV as combat ready, no figures for short-term repair. 15 August, 15 combat-ready of all types, 21 August, 10 combat ready tanks of all types. I'm counting infantry and tanks as "combat effectives"; they could have had all the artillery, engineers, FlaK and Nebelwerfer troops up to strength among the other 9,000 listed, but it didn't matter for much. The Germans didn't think so; the remnants were withdrawn to Germany in September, and the few fighting troops formed a Kampfgruppe attached to LAH at the start of September while the division reformed.
 

[hirr]Leto

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I suppose the 12th SS will not be in CMN then? Does anyone know if the actual details of the divisions fighting on both sides will be incorporated into the unit information, structure and OOB? Or will it be like CMx1 where you will pick an ss mechanized division to represent?

But I suppose, that there will be no SS in CMN either, as that will be for the next module: Canadians at Carpiquet and the battles around that area are perhaps some of my faves.

I think someone has already put up a list of what units were involved on the american side of the landings... I'll have to find it.

Cheers!

Leto
 

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[hirr]Leto;1283826 said:
I think someone has already put up a list of what units were involved on the american side of the landings... I'll have to find it.

Cheers!

Leto
U.S., prior to breakout, so up until about July whatever:

Utah sector:

82nd Airborne
101st Airborne
4th infantry division
9th infantry division
90th infantry division
79th infantry division

Omaha sector:

29th infantry division
1st infantry division
2nd infantry division
83rd infantry division
30th infantry division
2nd Armored division
3rd Armored division

Plus the usual unholy buttload of corps assets. I think I got everybody.

-dale
 

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The reason the 12th SS limped out of Normandy with a handful of effectives (read Zetterling) was because of their bizarre defensive doctrine.
Which was what exactly? You still haven't said one thing about German defense doctrine. You seem to have some bug in your a** over the 12th SS and are operating on some premise that no one here has subscribed to. You brought up Charnwood as some example for something - the facts are the Allies didn't achieve their objectives(ie bridgeheads over the Orne), both sides got hammered - Allies considerably more, and the 12th SS retreated across the Orne, with their heavy weapons and blew the bridges behind them.(no mean feat disengaging from the enemy after two days of brutal fighting, let alone doing so across a river)

Read Hubert Meyer on the state of the HJ after Falaise.
 

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Actually, I think the British and Canadians had an extremely sound battle doctrine, and when properly applied, it worked well. The German defensive doctrine, on the other hand, was silly. The 12th SS simply magnified it by not even bothering to stick to it.
If 21st AG doctrine was good and the Germans were so inept what happened to the great Allied Victory in the 21st AG AO?

The Allied offensive doctrine in Normandy was just as bad as the German defensive one.

The Allied defensive doctrine was great. Have thousands times more equipment than the Germans, including battleships to use as on-call artillery and we can make any amount of mistakes we want and still win.

BRILLIANT!

Good Hunting.

MR
 
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Mad Russian

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Another one of the big reasons why I don't like historical scenarios. So many require some sort of outlier behavior or condition to "ring true", and a solid game design will tend to dampen down those outliers.
Depends on what the designer is trying to model and how skillful he is as a designer.

I know I've read about this here but I forget - can you choose starting casualty and ammo levels in the editor or new QB setup? As has been pointed out, the Normandy before the breakout was a meat grinder for both sides, and squads would tend to be depleted if you're going for "realistic".

-dale
Yes, CM allows you to set casualites, ammo load outs, experience, bonus points, objectives, start areas, length of battle, you can even name the commander of every section, platoon, company and battalion.

Good Hunting.

MR
 

Mad Russian

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I think you read the same comic books Mad Russian reads, only you comprehend them even more poorly than he does.
Really? And what comic books would those be?

If you don't like Jentz as a resource who do you recommend?

Good Hunting.

MR
 
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dalem

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Depends on what the designer is trying to model and how skillful he is as a designer.



Yes, CM allows you to set casualites, ammo load outs, experience, bonus points, objectives, start areas, length of battle, you can even name the commander of every section, platoon, company and battalion.

Good Hunting.

MR
Ah, okay. I know that's true in CMx1, wasn't sure about CMx2. Thanks!

-dale
 

Geordie

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Ah, okay. I know that's true in CMx1, wasn't sure about CMx2. Thanks!

-dale
It's not, at least Ive never seen it. Experience levels yes, but Ive never seen any pre-loaded casualties in anything Ive played.
 

Michael Dorosh

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If 21st AG doctrine was good and the Germans were so inept what happened to the great Allied Victory in the 21st AG AO?

The Allied offensive doctrine in Normandy was just as bad as the German defensive one.
Except that it wasn't. I keep getting accused of conflating tactics and strategy, but I don't think I'm the one at fault.

In February 1944, Lieutenant-General Guy G. Simonds, the commander of 2nd Canadian Corps, gave a detailed series of tactical notes to commanders preparing for the invasion of Europe, based on his battle experience in Italy as commander of the 1st Canadian Infantry Division. The notes are remarkable for their clarity and in describing so well the course of tactical battles to come in Normandy, the breakout across northern France and Belgium, the fighting in the Netherlands, the Rhineland, the Rhine crossings, and the final battles in Germany.

* For attacks on prepared positions, adequate reconnaissance was emphasized, with assaults to take place on a limited front with "all available" artillery so that "really heavy support may be given." A Commonwealth division of nine infantry battalions had three field regiments of 25-pounder guns (24 guns in each), while each infantry battalion had six 3-inch mortars of its own. The divisional support battalion had a company of 4.2-inch mortars. The corps artillery had additional fire support available in 4.5”, 5.5” and 7.2” gun regiments, and for large scale operations, tactical air support was available ranging from fighter-bombers to medium and even four-engine heavy bomber support. Naval gunfire was also used while in Normandy.

* Initial objectives had to penetrate to beyond the normal range of German mortars, or else those mortars had to be dislodged by counter-battery fire (difficult to do owing to the ease with which they could be deployed in cover and concealment).

* Consideration was to be given in large-scale operations as to when to move friendly artillery forward, and when to schedule friendly air power, possibly as a substitute.

* Simonds also impressed on his commanders the value of friendly tanks and anti-tank guns being forward with the infantry, as well as the use of artillery against enemy tanks, directed by Forward Observation Officers of field artillery batteries travelling with the leading infantry.

* Anti-tank obstacles and thick minefields were common and initial attacks were to be made by the infantry to secure gaps or breach obstacles

These tactical points were raised in reaction to German defensive battle doctrine, which stressed the following:

* Forward positions were defended lightly, thinly held with small groups of men strong in automatic weapons.

* Stronger infantry forces were held in reserve, ready to counter-attack where necessary.

* Forward positions were strongly supported by mortars, usually located 3,000 to 4,000 yards to the rear, capable of firing ahead of or anywhere within the defended zone. The Germans pre-registered their own positions and immediately and heavily shelled and mortared them once they were known to be lost.

* Tanks and self-propelled guns were held in reserve and when enemy infantry had broken into friendly positions, would move in and deliver direct fire at very close range.

Terry Copp had this to say about it in 'The Brigade':

In theory there was nothing wrong with Simonds' version of Allied battle experience but in practice the thinly armoured, undergunned Sherman tanks were seldom able to accompany the infantry onto the objective, and almost never able to stay to help meet the counterattacks. The self-propelled anti-tank guns stayed well to the rear and it usually took some time to get the towed six-pounder and seventeen-pounder anti-tank guns into position. All too often the infantry had only the artillery to (rely) upon, not only to "shoot" them onto the objective but also to break up the counterattacks with well-directed concentrations. More than one infantry company commander has described his role in North-West Europe as "escorting the artillery Forward Observation Officer (FOO) across France."
The intense concentrations of German tanks before Falaise was unusual, but even then, massed firepower in escalating amounts was orchestrated to move things forward - including heavy bombers. There were obviously kinks, including a lot of short-bombing incidents, both American and RAF (COBRA, TOTALIZE, etc.) But the basic concepts were sound, even if certain types of equipment (i.e. medium tanks) were not equal to the task. After Normandy, tank-to-tank battles were increasingly rare, particularly for the British/Canadians.

Basically, a Canadian or British infantry battalion in an infantry division in a deliberate attack relied on the artillery to shoot it onto an objective, generally in concert with a divisional fire plan and with support from divisional and corps assets, including armour from independent armoured brigades. The Germans, on the other hand, generally defended their territory with a light screen of outposts, pre-registered their front, and their own front line, with mortars, and kept a reserve of infantry, and where available, assault guns or tanks to counter-attack. The fatal flaw for the Commonwealth in this set up was the weak armour of their tanks and the vulnerability of their infantry to the ever-present mortars which were difficult to do counter-mortar fire on - they could be dug in anywhere and almost impossible to spot. For the Germans, the disadvantages were that the counter-attacks were generally costly and once the Commonwealth gained their objectives, were very often difficult to throw back out because their artillery was so well organized and able to concentrate massed fires so quickly using the Parham system. A single code word could call down divisional, corps or even army level assets onto a German counter-attack in matters of minutes.
 

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Depends on what the designer is trying to model and how skillful he is as a designer.



Yes, CM allows you to set casualites, ammo load outs, experience, bonus points, objectives, start areas, length of battle, you can even name the commander of every section, platoon, company and battalion.

Good Hunting.

MR
As Geordie says, CMx2 lets you set all of those apart from casualties. You can play with the status of vehicles (destroyed, abandoned, immobilised), but all infantry units are full strength at the start of the battle.

Something that very much needs to change in CM:N, although I vaguely recall some comments that casualty levels can indeed be set for Normandy (but I can't back that up right now).
 

Mad Russian

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Ah, okay. I know that's true in CMx1, wasn't sure about CMx2. Thanks!

-dale
I was referring to CMx1. It's been so long ago that I played CMx2 that I have no idea what that system is capable of any more.

Good Hunting.

MR
 

Mad Russian

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I guess we need to determine what the subject is here MD. You said;

Actually, I think the British and Canadians had an extremely sound battle doctrine, and when properly applied, it worked well. The German defensive doctrine, on the other hand, was silly. The 12th SS simply magnified it by not even bothering to stick to it.

What level of doctrine do you want to discuss here? From what I can see everybody had "an extremely sound battle doctrine, and when properly applied, it worked well." The problem in Normandy is that those battle doctrines were seldom applied for a number of reasons.

All the examples you have given so far have been for Canadian units. If the Canadians were in such great shape why was Montgomery going to sack Canadian General Crerar only to have Churchill stop that move because of political considerations?

The truth of the matter is that neither side was ready to fight in the Normandy terrain.

The Germans weren't prepared for the Allied superiority in air power, naval gun support and the sheer weight of material the Allies brought ashore. They were infantry poor and had to fight more with tanks than was their normal doctrine. They were forced to fight with what they had and at times, not as many times as the Germans want to claim, Hitler was directing the operations and not the commanders on the spot. I fail to see how you can make that the division commanders fault when he's ordered to attack after they have all but refused under threat of courts martial. Mortain comes to mind here.

The 21st AG was so good that they lost HUNDREDS of tanks in multiple engagements to gain yards at times and nothing at other times. British forces were so bloodied they had to dissolve some of their infantry divisions to keep others up to fighting strength. That was a combination of the terrain, German defensive tactics and the fact that Britain was short of manpower and couldn't maintain the flow of reinforcements. Monty was roundly criticized by US commanders and historians both then and to this day. Unfairly so. Mostly I think it was because of an intense personal dislike for the man. The fact is that like the Germans 21st AG had to rely more heavily on tanks to do the job that should have fallen to infantry formations if they were available.

I notice you've not said a single word about the combat prowess of US forces yet either. How we moved an entire hedgerow per major operation and how we managed to bleed 21AG white holding the northern shoulder while we "broke out".

Both sides during Normandy were inept. You can quote me any Allied General you want that wants to pat himself on the back. The comic books I read, and the misunderstanding I get from them, tell me neither side was prepared to fight in the hedgerows. Neither side managed to do anything but blunder through those early battles and only Allied superiority in material finally managed to break the deadlock. Along with Hitler's orders to attack at Mortain to ensure his forces were encircled at Falaise. For every Allied General you can quote that says how well they did I can quote you at least one and probably more that say just how poorly they did. The mighty British 7th Armored Division was almost disbanded for a lack of combat prowess when it got to Normandy. They weren't prepared to fight in that type of terrain after the desert. No Allied unit received adequate training for hedgerows because they were going to go right through it and on to Paris.

The 21st AG did so well that they didn't even take Caen when it was empty. Instead they let the Germans move in then bombed into a brick pile they couldn't even move through when the did finally take it.

Oh yes, everybody was doing just great. The highest ranking American officer killed in NWE was killed in an American bombing raid. The Omaha beach pre-invasion aerial bombardment didn't even hit the beach defenses but landed behind them. The Germans had entire units with medical ailments or made up of mercenary troops from the east that surrendered en-mass as soon as they got near an Allied unit.

I can see why you think Normandy is the gold standard for tactical, operational and strategic operations in world history.

There is some interesting reading in these comic books that have helped me gain my misunderstanding of the whole affair:

"August 1944: The Campaign for France" by Robert A. Miller
"Brute Force: Allied Strategy and Tactics in the Second World War" by John Ellis
"Colossal Cracks: Montgomery's 21st Army Group in Northwest Europe, 1944-1945" by Stephen Ashely Hart
"Death Traps: The Survival Of An American Armored Division in World War Two" by Belton Y. Cooper
"Decision In Normandy" by Carlo D'Este
"Invasion: They're Coming" by Paul Carell
"Operation Cobra and the Great Offensive: Sixty Days That Changed the Course of World War II" by Bill Yenne
"Retreat To the Reich: The German Defeat in France, 1944" by Samuel W. Mitcham Jr.
"Steel Inferno: 1st SS Panzer Corps in Normandy" by Michael Reynolds
"Sons of the Reich: II SS Panzer Corps in Normandy, Arnhem, Ardennes, Eastern Front" by Michael Reynolds
"The Duel For France, 1944: The Men And Battles That Changed The Fate Of Europe" by Martin Blumenson


That's a short list of the comic books that I recommend you try. If you want others we can talk more about that later.

Good Hunting.

MR
 
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Mad Russian

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The intense concentrations of German tanks before Falaise was unusual, but even then, massed firepower in escalating amounts was orchestrated to move things forward - including heavy bombers. There were obviously kinks, including a lot of short-bombing incidents, both American and RAF (COBRA, TOTALIZE, etc.) But the basic concepts were sound, even if certain types of equipment (i.e. medium tanks) were not equal to the task. After Normandy, tank-to-tank battles were increasingly rare, particularly for the British/Canadians.
Of course concentrations of German tanks were unusual. The Germans were so low on infantry they had Panzer Divisions in the line. That's bad tactics. What is worse tactics is nothing in the front line. The Germans either put tanks in the line and spread them out or there were NO units in the line.

Basically, a Canadian or British infantry battalion in an infantry division in a deliberate attack relied on the artillery to shoot it onto an objective, generally in concert with a divisional fire plan and with support from divisional and corps assets, including armour from independent armoured brigades.
British and Canadian units were shot onto the objective by artillery because they were so short of infantry they couldn't afford an infantry assault without it. Even before the Normandy campaign was over the British were disbanding infantry divisions to keep others in the line.


The Germans, on the other hand, generally defended their territory with a light screen of outposts, pre-registered their front, and their own front line, with mortars, and kept a reserve of infantry, and where available, assault guns or tanks to counter-attack. The fatal flaw for the Commonwealth in this set up was the weak armour of their tanks and the vulnerability of their infantry to the ever-present mortars which were difficult to do counter-mortar fire on - they could be dug in anywhere and almost impossible to spot. For the Germans, the disadvantages were that the counter-attacks were generally costly and once the Commonwealth gained their objectives, were very often difficult to throw back out because their artillery was so well organized and able to concentrate massed fires so quickly using the Parham system. A single code word could call down divisional, corps or even army level assets onto a German counter-attack in matters of minutes.
The Germans were extremely short of infantry as well. I guess it's just the comic books I read, and the misunderstanding I get from them, but it's always been my understanding that INFANTRY win wars. Not tanks, boats or airplanes.

The guy standing on the ground when the smoke clears wins. That's the PBI.

All sides in Normandy were taking losses that they were out of proportion to what they expected and everybody was unprepared to replace those losses. The Allies were better able to replace their losses and the Americans were the ones that managed to keep enough reinforcements coming into Normandy to finally make the defense break by sheer weight of numbers. It certainly wasn't accomplished by how tactically superior we were.

Good Hunting.

MR
 
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dalem

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"August 1944: The Campaign for France" by Robert A. Miller
"Brute Force: Allied Strategy and Tactics in the Second World War" by John Ellis
"Colossal Cracks: Montgomery's 21st Army Group in Northwest Europe, 1944-1945" by Stephen Ashely Hart
"Death Traps: The Survival Of An American Armored Division in World War Two" by Belton Y. Cooper
"Invasion: They're Coming" by Paul Carell
"Operation Cobra and the Great Offensive: Sixty Days That Changed the Course of World War II" by Bill Yenne
"Retreat To the Reich: The German Defeat in France, 1944" by Samuel W. Mitcham Jr.
"Steel Inferno: 1st SS Panzer Corps in Normandy" by Michael Reynolds
"Sons of the Reich: II SS Panzer Corps in Normandy, Arnhem, Ardennes, Eastern Front" by Michael Reynolds
"The Duel For France, 1944: The Men And Battles That Changed The Fate Of Europe" by Martin Blumenson
I've only read three of those - Death Traps, Invasion, and Steel Inferno. Death Traps and Steel Inferno are both crap, in my opinion. It's been a long time since I read Invasion - I don't remember much about it.

So many books, so little time...

-dale
 

Mad Russian

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Do you remember why you considered them crap?

For the most part those books listed are pretty dry reading. "Invasion: They're Coming" isn't bad. Colossal Cracks and Decision in Normandy can get really dry at times.

Good Hunting.

MR
 
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Geordie

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All sides in Normandy were taking losses that they were out of proportion to what they expected and everybody was unprepared to replace those losses. The Allies were better able to replace their losses and the Americans were the ones that managed to keep enough reinforcements coming into Normandy to finally make the defense break by sheer weight of numbers. It certainly wasn't accomplished by how tactically superior we were.
This is something that has always amused me at times. The ability of well read people to ignore certain facts about Normandy.

I think when dealing with Normandy you have to keep in mind a few things:

Whatever anyone thinks about Montgomery, he was in charge of the whole thing. In fact he predicted almost to the day, just how long it would take the Allies to win in Nomandy.

The plan always was to have the US breakout and the Commonwealth tie down the Germans in the East, despite anything ekes stated at the time. Any failure to take specific locations (Caen) was immaterial to the main thrust.

For the greater part of the Campaign the US force faced Infantry heavy formations in a countryside almost designed for Infantry defensive warfare.

Keeping the above in mind should help us to dispel a few 'myths' of Normandy while discussing it.

Cheers
 
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dalem

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Do you remember why you considered them crap?

For the most part those books listed are pretty dry reading. "Invasion: They're Coming" isn't bad. Colossal Cracks and Decision in Normandy can get really dry at times.

Good Hunting.

MR
Cooper's book is nothing but a polemic against U.S. armored warfare doctrine in the abstract and the Sherman tank in specific. It is long on opinion and anecdote but woefully short on numbers or technical specifications that would reinforce his opinion.

Kinda like a lot of my internet posts. :)

So Cooper thinks the M4 sucked, big whoop. Lots of folks thought they sucked, lots of folks thought they were great, and I don't see any reasonable way for the Pershing platform to have been acclerated in light of the #1 factor of keeping production lines churning at 100%. And he's the only one I know of that actually takes a stand against the "new" version armored divisions of the 1944 reorg.

The Steel Inferno thing I see as kind of a sad joke - full of that uberNazi grogporn crap that I abhor. I remember actually exclaiming things like "I don't believe this garbage!" and "am I supposed to take this clown seriously?" out loud to my empty hotel room, it was so rank.

I remember liking Invasion quite a bit, but I read it back in high school, so I was probably thinking about boobs or something while I was reading it.

-dale
 

Mad Russian

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Cooper's book is nothing but a polemic against U.S. armored warfare doctrine in the abstract and the Sherman tank in specific. It is long on opinion and anecdote but woefully short on numbers or technical specifications that would reinforce his opinion.

Kinda like a lot of my internet posts. :)

So Cooper thinks the M4 sucked, big whoop. Lots of folks thought they sucked, lots of folks thought they were great, and I don't see any reasonable way for the Pershing platform to have been acclerated in light of the #1 factor of keeping production lines churning at 100%. And he's the only one I know of that actually takes a stand against the "new" version armored divisions of the 1944 reorg.

The Steel Inferno thing I see as kind of a sad joke - full of that uberNazi grogporn crap that I abhor. I remember actually exclaiming things like "I don't believe this garbage!" and "am I supposed to take this clown seriously?" out loud to my empty hotel room, it was so rank.

I remember liking Invasion quite a bit, but I read it back in high school, so I was probably thinking about boobs or something while I was reading it.

-dale
I actually interviewed Belton Cooper on three occasions for scenarios I did in my 3rd Armored Division series of battles for CMx1. He was against the fact that the Sherman didn't do well 1on1 with the German tanks. He had to go and pick up burned out tanks with crewmen still inside. That may well have colored my view point of them as well. I rarely agree with everything an author says or all of their opinion. It's okay not to agree fully with them. I read books to get the overall picture. I don't think you can do that from just reading the material presented from one view point. If at all possible I read about operations from both sides. Then go looking to see where the two viewpoints seem to meet in the middle.

ROFL!! I have to say that your post coupled with Geordies puts research in about it's proper prospective. You have to take most of what you read with a grain of salt. Every author has a point they want to get across. They have their "opinion" for lack of a better term. All books are the authors opinion. Some are just more pronounced than others. When you factor out the Allied opinions and the German opinions the truth usually lies in the middle. After all the back slapping or the recriminations what were the actual results? That is usually what tells the tale the closest to the truth.

Monty wasn't near as bad as the Americans made him out to be.

The SS weren't supermen and weren't near as tough as they were made out to be all the time. That book on the SS was actually written by an ex British Major General.

I'm interested in knowing what facts Geordie thinks I'm ignoring though. Monty was in charge of D-Day for the first part and then overall command passed to Eisenhower. I've seen both sides of the British hold the northern shoulder argument. Where 21st AG did exemplary work holding it and all the German Panzers came down the coast and hit them and not the Americans. I've seen where that is used as an excuse by the 21st AG for not breaking out on their own during certain operations.

This thread all started with MD accusing the Germans of being inept but the British and Canadians having an extremely sound battle doctrine. Which they did. So did everybody else. The issue is for the most part in Normandy those battle doctrines didn't fit the terrain and the circumstances and didn't work well at all.

Good Hunting.

MR
 
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