What do you think some of the key battles for a Normandy game would be?

[hirr]Leto

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I'm interested to know what the serious grogs think what would make the best campaigns and scenarios if you had to choose from a list of battles.

I suspect that since CMN is now more of a squad shooter than company based game now, there will be a lot of semi-historical scenarios crammed in based loosely on certain battles... it would give designers and developers a lot more leeway anyways.

Plus it may be hard to design battles for very small portions of a much larger battle that could be developed in CMx1.

For me, historical realism has never been a big deal for me, although I appreciate it when I see a good job done. I think scenarios were best when designed with a license to interpret battles and concentrate on the balance and challenge of the scenario over that of historically correct OOB's down to the XO's trouser boy and the number of cookwagons involved.

Cheers!

Leto
 

Geordie

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Not sure, certainly something off-beach though! However, CMSF already has bigger maps and so I dont think the game will be too small. In RT I do think it will be down to management capabilities though. Fortunately I have always preffered the smaller scale battles and so this shouldnt affect me that much.
 

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Since the first game is US v. German, june-sept 44, you can expect battles and campaigns focussing on the drive from the beaches towards St-Lo, Cobra, Mortain, the southern flank of the falaise Gap and the breakout towards eastern France and Belgium. So you should have a mix of platoon/company sized infantry batlles in Bocage as well as battles in more open terrain.
 

Mad Russian

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I thought it's been said there will be no bocage in CMN?

Good Hunting.

MR
 

[hirr]Leto

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no there will be bocage. the Bocage tiles are already in and work well so far.
How could they not have bocage and attempt to recreate some of the early battles after the landing? Although prohibitively boring for some, as it has been discussed on this and other forums as a very challenging terrain to attack into, it is one feature that we really have not seen modeled (well modeled as well as it should, I suppose).

My interest probably won't lie in bocage though. I still think the most inspiring and tactically challenging/stimulating battles were along the Commonwealth advance front. At least in the early days.

But without having to hit the books, I find it hard to think of many key battles that were of tactical interest in the early Normandy period in the yank operations areas. I'm obviously not a super grog.

: )

Cheers!

Leto
 

dalem

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Well, there's Carentan - that'll showcase paratroopers from both sides. Someone would probably want to do a new version of "Hello, 2nd Armored" too for a real free-for-all.

To do anything right off the beaches, especially in the Utah sector, the game would have to handle marsh and other flooded terrain well. As discussed in a similar thread before, other possibilities in the Utah sector would be Mountebug, Cherbourg itself, and the battles in and around St Mere Eglis the first and second day.

Over Omaha way, St Lo is the obvious magnet, with Isigny another critical town. If it goes all the way through September, then my favorite, the Stolberg/Arracourt battles, can be done if someone wants big tankfests.

-dale
 

[hirr]Leto

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Well, there's Carentan - that'll showcase paratroopers from both sides. Someone would probably want to do a new version of "Hello, 2nd Armored" too for a real free-for-all.

To do anything right off the beaches, especially in the Utah sector, the game would have to handle marsh and other flooded terrain well. As discussed in a similar thread before, other possibilities in the Utah sector would be Mountebug, Cherbourg itself, and the battles in and around St Mere Eglis the first and second day.

Over Omaha way, St Lo is the obvious magnet, with Isigny another critical town. If it goes all the way through September, then my favorite, the Stolberg/Arracourt battles, can be done if someone wants big tankfests.

-dale
One problem with the Arracourt battles is that there is an awful lot of Panthers and panzergrenadiers involved on the axis OOB and very few tanks in the allied OOB that could hurt them. I even once saw a scenaro somewhere that had Hellcats involved to balance things out. I do not think there were hellcats involved.... LOL!

Cheers!

Leto
 

dalem

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[hirr]Leto;1283175 said:
One problem with the Arracourt battles is that there is an awful lot of Panthers and panzergrenadiers involved on the axis OOB and very few tanks in the allied OOB that could hurt them. I even once saw a scenaro somewhere that had Hellcats involved to balance things out. I do not think there were hellcats involved.... LOL!

Cheers!

Leto
Well, in Real Life all those Panthers were handled quite adequately by even vanilla Shermans and their 75mms. As far as Pzgrdrs, they stop bullets and shrapnel just as well as any meat puppet does.

-dale
 

[hirr]Leto

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Well, in Real Life all those Panthers were handled quite adequately by even vanilla Shermans and their 75mms. As far as Pzgrdrs, they stop bullets and shrapnel just as well as any meat puppet does.

-dale
And in more rigid game terms, this may be much more difficult to emulate. Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of the Arracourt battles, but there lies a challenge for balancing the forces in a way that is both historical and fair to both sides who attempt to play a scenario with history (as near as possible) as the foundation.


As to the Vanilla Shermans, I remember reading in one book (forget the name) of a lone Panther that held a crossroads in an area outside of Carentan? and was able to hold off three companies of Shermans (that were picked off one by one along the road leading up to it, with very little room to manuever through the ditches on the sides for the Americans to flank) that were attempting to break out. The cat finally retreated back down the road from whence it came having destroyed and damaged over 7 newly landed Shermans.

Cheers!

Leto
 

dalem

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[hirr]Leto;1283197 said:
As to the Vanilla Shermans, I remember reading in one book (forget the name) of a lone Panther that held a crossroads in an area outside of Carentan? and was able to hold off three companies of Shermans (that were picked off one by one along the road leading up to it, with very little room to manuever through the ditches on the sides for the Americans to flank) that were attempting to break out. The cat finally retreated back down the road from whence it came having destroyed and damaged over 7 newly landed Shermans.

Cheers!

Leto
Oh, I have no doubt - that's a perfect position to be in. Reverse it and make the Panther an M10 or M18 or Sherman 76mm and the Shermans PzIVs and you'll see the same numbers. But the Arracourt battles were in much less restrictive terrain overall.

-dale
 

mOBIUS

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[hirr]Leto;1283197 said:
As to the Vanilla Shermans, I remember reading in one book (forget the name) of a lone Panther that held a crossroads in an area outside of Carentan? and was able to hold off three companies of Shermans (that were picked off one by one along the road leading up to it, with very little room to manuever through the ditches on the sides for the Americans to flank) that were attempting to break out. The cat finally retreated back down the road from whence it came having destroyed and damaged over 7 newly landed Shermans.
Cheers!

Leto
That could have been "Barkmann's Corner". 3 Panthers in a village held off a big number of Shermans. Barkmann got 7 of them as they came down a road. Two of three Panthers were hit by aircraft. I think some problem/damage happened to Barkmann and he eventually left the village.
 

[hirr]Leto

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That could have been "Barkmann's Corner". 3 Panthers in a village held off a big number of Shermans. Barkmann got 7 of them as they came down a road. Two of three Panthers were hit by aircraft. I think some problem/damage happened to Barkmann and he eventually left the village.
That was indeed the reference I was looking for as I remember Barkmann's name.

Cheers!

Leto
 

Mad Russian

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[hirr]Leto;1283197 said:
And in more rigid game terms, this may be much more difficult to emulate. Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of the Arracourt battles, but there lies a challenge for balancing the forces in a way that is both historical and fair to both sides who attempt to play a scenario with history (as near as possible) as the foundation.


As to the Vanilla Shermans, I remember reading in one book (forget the name) of a lone Panther that held a crossroads in an area outside of Carentan? and was able to hold off three companies of Shermans (that were picked off one by one along the road leading up to it, with very little room to manuever through the ditches on the sides for the Americans to flank) that were attempting to break out. The cat finally retreated back down the road from whence it came having destroyed and damaged over 7 newly landed Shermans.

Cheers!

Leto
That sounds like Barkmann's Corner. Lot's of information about that fight on the internet.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157528&highlight=barkmann

There are some issues with that fight though....

The "tank" unit that Barkmann "delayed" was Troop A, 4th Cavalry Squadron (Mecz), reinforced by one platoon of E Troop (two M8 HMC) and one platoon of F Company (five M5 Light Tanks), reinforced by Battery B, 391st Field Artillery (correction: that should have been six M7 GMC). The troop was screening the flank of the southward advance by the 1st ID and CCB, 3rd AD on Marigny and southwest to Coutances and wasn't very interested in advancing due west. There was no record of air support being available and none was called for so if Barkmann was attacked by aircraft it was by accident.

1st Platoon lost four "vehicles" including two tanks and 3rd Platoon lost all its 1/4-ton GP. So Barkmann's score was actually two M5 Light Tanks, two M8 AC or GP, and six GP; ten vehicles in total. At least he got the numbers close to correct.

By that evening Marigny had fallen and the advance by the 1st ID and CCB continued west along the Coutances-Marigny Road with little interference, well south of La Lorey, turning north in the afternoon and seizing Comprond, well behind Barkmann. I'm not sure I could characterize his actions as a delay, let alone as significant, since A Troop accomplished its mission successfully.


Followed up by this:

The only possible units with Shermans that can be considered are the 745th Tank Battalion, which reported no tanks of any kind lost or damaged on 27 July and that reported only one write-off for the month, or CCB, 3rd AD.

Supposedly Barkmann was north of the N172 on the dirt road from Le Neufbourg to Le Lorey, but CCB motored down the N172 after bypassing Marigny to the west starting at late morning, advanced without significant opposition about four miles and then turned north and seized Camprond and Hill 177 at 1540.

I have found no record of major losses to the division. They reported 104 M4 Medium Tanks and 9 M5 Light Tanks damaged and lost 2-23 July. The number written off is difficult to be certain, Steve Zaloga gives 40 M4 Mediums lost for July, while the divisional Ordnance Maintenance Battalion gave 52 tanks of all types written off for the month...including apparently some lost in their initial action on 30 June. But total tanks reported operational at 2200 on 27 July were 399, exactly the same as there were at 2200 on 23 July. At 2200 hours 30 July, when the next report was made, there were 393. The 32nd Armor didn't report significant tank losses, although the 33rd had at least two M4 Mediums knocked out...at Quibou.

Nor were there excessive personnel casualties reported on that day, just 91 for the 3rd AD and 93 for the 1st ID.

There simply aren't any other units that reported significant opposition near where Barkmann supposedly was on that day. The only other candidates are B Troop and the 16th RCT, but they were along the D53 attacking south southwest from northwest of Marigny when they encountered resistance. The actions of 3rd/16th Infantry could fit, except that they were just 1/2 mile west of Marigny, had no tanks, and just one company of TDs, none of whoch were lost, when they were counterattacked by an estimated 100 Germans supported by a single tank. Possibly Barkmann, but not alone, and no armored vehicles at all lost.


Questions about the fight were:

1) Are CCA completely out of the picture?
2) Confirm that 4th AD did not stray into the area.
3) Explain the make up of 'B Troop' and the '16th RCT'.
4) Are you saying 3rd AD lost no tanks between 23rd July and 22:00 hours on 27 July?

And then the final analysis here:

1) CCA attacked south southeast, away from Marigny and Barkmann's supposed position.

2) 4th AD wasn't committed until 28 July, moving from Periers to Coutances, and was nowhere near the putative scene of this action.

3) B Troop was a Cavalry Reconnaissance Troop (Mech) comprised of three platoons of M8 AC and 1/4-ton GP. It was also reinforced by a platoon of light tanks and a platoon of assault guns. CT 16 comprised the 16th Infantry, 7th FA, B Battery, 103rd AA, A Company, 1st Med, A Company, 1st Engineers, detachment, 1st Signal Company, Reconnaissance and A Company, 634th TD Bn (SP), A Company, 635th TD Bn (towed), and A and B Company, 87th Chemical Mortar Bn.

4) No, but it is unlikely they had any write-offs, and I can find no accounts of any major losses occuring. That a battery of the 391st FA, which was attached in direct support to CCB, fired in support of A Troop, 4th Cavalry, is rather indicative that the most serious fighting was to the flank. There are also accounts of some of the cannoneers taking up small arms to help repel the German infantry assault and of the crew of an SP AA mount, probably apocryphally, "blowing the wheel off a German "Panther tank" with a hand-set charge of TNT. Frankly, I give that last story about equal weight in terms of absolute accuracy as i do Barkmann's.

Mind you, that doesn't mean that I disbelieve Barkmann, rather I disbelieve the exact accuracy of his account and suspect that in fact he was engaged heavily on that day, just not with significant numbers of American medium tanks, nor did he inflict significant casualties, nor did he fight a "lone battle" against "incredible" odds (except that he did fight with his back to the wall, as did all those trapped by the American advance, who most certainly were collectively badly outnumbered in an operational sense.


http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=156158

Which all means that one of the most famous tank battles in Normandy may well not have been as advertised. They seldom are when medals are issued.

Good Hunting.

MR
 
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[hirr]Leto

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That sounds like Barkmann's Corner. Lot's of information about that fight on the internet.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157528&highlight=barkmann

There are some issues with that fight though....

The "tank" unit that Barkmann "delayed" was Troop A, 4th Cavalry Squadron (Mecz), reinforced by one platoon of E Troop (two M8 HMC) and one platoon of F Company (five M5 Light Tanks), reinforced by Battery B, 391st Field Artillery (correction: that should have been six M7 GMC). The troop was screening the flank of the southward advance by the 1st ID and CCB, 3rd AD on Marigny and southwest to Coutances and wasn't very interested in advancing due west. There was no record of air support being available and none was called for so if Barkmann was attacked by aircraft it was by accident.

1st Platoon lost four "vehicles" including two tanks and 3rd Platoon lost all its 1/4-ton GP. So Barkmann's score was actually two M5 Light Tanks, two M8 AC or GP, and six GP; ten vehicles in total. At least he got the numbers close to correct.

By that evening Marigny had fallen and the advance by the 1st ID and CCB continued west along the Coutances-Marigny Road with little interference, well south of La Lorey, turning north in the afternoon and seizing Comprond, well behind Barkmann. I'm not sure I could characterize his actions as a delay, let alone as significant, since A Troop accomplished its mission successfully.


Followed up by this:

The only possible units with Shermans that can be considered are the 745th Tank Battalion, which reported no tanks of any kind lost or damaged on 27 July and that reported only one write-off for the month, or CCB, 3rd AD.

Supposedly Barkmann was north of the N172 on the dirt road from Le Neufbourg to Le Lorey, but CCB motored down the N172 after bypassing Marigny to the west starting at late morning, advanced without significant opposition about four miles and then turned north and seized Camprond and Hill 177 at 1540.

I have found no record of major losses to the division. They reported 104 M4 Medium Tanks and 9 M5 Light Tanks damaged and lost 2-23 July. The number written off is difficult to be certain, Steve Zaloga gives 40 M4 Mediums lost for July, while the divisional Ordnance Maintenance Battalion gave 52 tanks of all types written off for the month...including apparently some lost in their initial action on 30 June. But total tanks reported operational at 2200 on 27 July were 399, exactly the same as there were at 2200 on 23 July. At 2200 hours 30 July, when the next report was made, there were 393. The 32nd Armor didn't report significant tank losses, although the 33rd had at least two M4 Mediums knocked out...at Quibou.

Nor were there excessive personnel casualties reported on that day, just 91 for the 3rd AD and 93 for the 1st ID.

There simply aren't any other units that reported significant opposition near where Barkmann supposedly was on that day. The only other candidates are B Troop and the 16th RCT, but they were along the D53 attacking south southwest from northwest of Marigny when they encountered resistance. The actions of 3rd/16th Infantry could fit, except that they were just 1/2 mile west of Marigny, had no tanks, and just one company of TDs, none of whoch were lost, when they were counterattacked by an estimated 100 Germans supported by a single tank. Possibly Barkmann, but not alone, and no armored vehicles at all lost.


Questions about the fight were:

1) Are CCA completely out of the picture?
2) Confirm that 4th AD did not stray into the area.
3) Explain the make up of 'B Troop' and the '16th RCT'.
4) Are you saying 3rd AD lost no tanks between 23rd July and 22:00 hours on 27 July?

And then the final analysis here:

1) CCA attacked south southeast, away from Marigny and Barkmann's supposed position.

2) 4th AD wasn't committed until 28 July, moving from Periers to Coutances, and was nowhere near the putative scene of this action.

3) B Troop was a Cavalry Reconnaissance Troop (Mech) comprised of three platoons of M8 AC and 1/4-ton GP. It was also reinforced by a platoon of light tanks and a platoon of assault guns. CT 16 comprised the 16th Infantry, 7th FA, B Battery, 103rd AA, A Company, 1st Med, A Company, 1st Engineers, detachment, 1st Signal Company, Reconnaissance and A Company, 634th TD Bn (SP), A Company, 635th TD Bn (towed), and A and B Company, 87th Chemical Mortar Bn.

4) No, but it is unlikely they had any write-offs, and I can find no accounts of any major losses occuring. That a battery of the 391st FA, which was attached in direct support to CCB, fired in support of A Troop, 4th Cavalry, is rather indicative that the most serious fighting was to the flank. There are also accounts of some of the cannoneers taking up small arms to help repel the German infantry assault and of the crew of an SP AA mount, probably apocryphally, "blowing the wheel off a German "Panther tank" with a hand-set charge of TNT. Frankly, I give that last story about equal weight in terms of absolute accuracy as i do Barkmann's.

Mind you, that doesn't mean that I disbelieve Barkmann, rather I disbelieve the exact accuracy of his account and suspect that in fact he was engaged heavily on that day, just not with significant numbers of American medium tanks, nor did he inflict significant casualties, nor did he fight a "lone battle" against "incredible" odds (except that he did fight with his back to the wall, as did all those trapped by the American advance, who most certainly were collectively badly outnumbered in an operational sense.


http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=156158

Which all means that one of the most famous tank battles in Normandy may well not have been as advertised. They seldom are when medals are issued.

Good Hunting.

MR
Interesting. Thanks for this. I wish I could find that damn book now, as it was Barkmann discourse that was relayed.
 

Geordie

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One thing to remember though is that we won't see the full range of units available to the Germans or the Allies and so user made scenarios won't be fully able to represent everything until this happens. Once German paras and the SS arrive then we will have the whole spectrum of forces available. this is planned to happen with the Commonwealth module.

However, along as the equipment is available Im sure wee will see substitutes for the missing units, much like we did in CMAK.
 

[hirr]Leto

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One thing to remember though is that we won't see the full range of units available to the Germans or the Allies and so user made scenarios won't be fully able to represent everything until this happens. Once German paras and the SS arrive then we will have the whole spectrum of forces available. this is planned to happen with the Commonwealth module.

However, along as the equipment is available Im sure wee will see substitutes for the missing units, much like we did in CMAK.
If that translates into "we don't get Panthers in the base game", I could be a very unhappy cookie monster.

Cheers!

Leto
 

Geordie

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[hirr]Leto;1283218 said:
If that translates into "we don't get Panthers in the base game", I could be a very unhappy cookie monster.

Cheers!

Leto
I think that regular Wermacht units used Panthers and so they will be in, we've already seen the Tigers.
 

Mad Russian

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One thing to remember though is that we won't see the full range of units available to the Germans or the Allies and so user made scenarios won't be fully able to represent everything until this happens. Once German paras and the SS arrive then we will have the whole spectrum of forces available. this is planned to happen with the Commonwealth module.

However, along as the equipment is available Im sure wee will see substitutes for the missing units, much like we did in CMAK.
That leaves out Barkmann's Corner since he was assigned to the 2nd SS Panzer Division.

Good Hunting.

MR
 
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