What about boardgames like Panzer Leader?

Ivan Rapkinov

Harpoon Forum Moderator
Joined
Sep 14, 2002
Messages
1,314
Reaction score
2
Location
Australia
Country
llAustralia
Don, just wondering, how do you go about deciding what boardgames to include on the forums?
 

Double Deuce

Forum Conscript
Joined
Dec 15, 2002
Messages
4,679
Reaction score
18
Location
Crossville, TN
Country
llUnited States
That brings up a good topic.

What about targeting the larger communities of older games such as some of the old AH boardgames (Panzerblitz/Panzer Leader, MBT, etc)? How about seeing whats being played using VASSAL and recruit some of those audences?

OR should we stick to targeting the followers of the newer games out there?

OR a combination of both?
 

dhuffjr

Forum Conscript
Joined
Jul 23, 2004
Messages
781
Reaction score
1
Location
Ohio
Country
llUnited States
Panzer Leader was the first wargame I bought and played. I think I still have it.
 

Aries

Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2002
Messages
4,187
Reaction score
5
Location
Earth
Country
llCanada
Some classic wargames never lose what made them classic.

What has happened, is a lot of wargamings wargamers have given up on actual physical wargaming, and have either gone fully to computer wargames, or have embraced a lot of VASSAL options.

It's hard to make a boardgame classic like Panzer Leader sexy, when it's obvious several computer wargames are basically the same setting the same scale, but all the convenience of a computer wargame.

The trick is therefore how to make a boardgame classic new and interesting again. I'm not giving up my copy of Panzer Leader any time soon, but, how does one plan to sell to a newcomer? that's the question.

It's when you can prove a case for an audience, that a forum has meaning.
 

GJK

Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2003
Messages
1,278
Reaction score
36
Location
ATX
Country
llUnited States
Unfortunately, the boardgaming section here on XGO is eerily vacant. However, I don't think it's because boardgames aren't being played but because there have been other avenues to discuss them for a while now (BGG.com, CSW primarily). It appears to me that you could combine all of the discussions for all of the boardgames here into one large folder and still not be overwhelmed by the number of posts (ASL folder aside of course). That is unfortunate as I said.

IF the discussions here became so overwhelming that sub-division of topics was needed, I would suggest doing it by era first and then if needed, by front (ala CSW). So you might have a WWII/Pacific Theater of Operations folder for example.

Who knows, perhaps setting it up like that now would invite more discussions about board wargaming because as it appears now, only ASL, PB/PL, WiF, The Gamers series and VASSAL are "supported". Oh, and I guess we have the Boardgamer's Lounge which covers everything from Chess to Go to Settlers of Cataan I suppose.

I'd love to discuss a game that I've been playing lately, "Fire in the Sky" - but not sure where I would start that discussion here (the "Lounge" I suppose). However, a WWII/PTO folder would be very inviting if it existed!

Just my observation, I appreciate that Don has even decided to support board wargaming in this electronic day and age. Which brings up a counter-point to what Aries said; basically that is I do like some computer wargames and if they offer pbem mode, all the better. Sometimes I just feel like playing an "AI" for an hour and that works out great. What makes boardgaming different though is that you have the ultimate control over all of your actions - you move all the pieces, you initiate and conduct each of the battles. The computer doesn't run anything for you - which is nice sometimes too. Also, sitting over a boardgame with someone else is the most enjoyable wargaming experience that I've found - realizing that it is not practical or possible for some folks, but if you have the opportunity I'd highly recommend it.
 

Blackcloud6

Elder Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2004
Messages
6,845
Reaction score
594
Location
New Baltimore, MI
Country
llUnited States
What has happened, is a lot of wargamings wargamers have given up on actual physical wargaming, and have either gone fully to computer wargames, or have embraced a lot of VASSAL options.
I've tended to go the opposite. In the mid to late 90's I was convinced that Boardgames were dead. That computer games would take over my gaming life. But in the last four years or so I have gravitated back to boardgames and seek out FtF games over the acutal board games.
 

Aries

Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2002
Messages
4,187
Reaction score
5
Location
Earth
Country
llCanada
Computer games will always beat board gamers over the head with "opponent in a box" and forget the opponent is a moron somewhere along the way.

It should be noted, whenever I consider a computer wargame a "viable option" I am doing it with the idea, that if I can't have another human to play against, I'll fake the other human by playing both sides myself.

Takes some of the sparkle out, but then again, it's not like board gamers never played board games solo and had to get past that quirk too.

Board games are like doing math without a calculator, you either get good, or you get nothing. And occasionally all that "do it in the head" portion of playing a board game is part of the experience. So while a computer can do all that stuff for us, and while some thing it is a bonus, some of us actually enjoy the doing of all that mental computation.
And once it is second nature, that's basically it, it becomes second nature.

I can look at a board game, and in a couple of sweeps across the board have all the "facts" about the current situation in as much as I need them. With a computer wargame, often you have to wade through many menus to find out any of that information.

Sometimes computers are a blessing, sometimes not.

As long as there are grogs like me playing, conventional old style board games will be viable products.
 

Eagle4ty

Elder Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
3,785
Reaction score
1,420
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
:hmmm: Don't really think board games are dead. I took a few (Test of Arms/Team Yankee) along with me to Iraq. A lot of the younger guys (20's & 30's) really expressed an intrest to sit down & enjoy some head to head competition and I had a crew of about 8 people that never really had at table top wargames before. I think VASL and ganme forums like this has the potential to breath new life into board games, if for nothing more than getting people together. Knowledge of other people interested in the same things was the hardest part of being a board wargamer.

The unfortunate caveate to this is however, is it is becoming increasingly harder to find the physical products carried in stores any more. The mom & pop hobby store is becoming rather rare, and the chain stores stress product movement of product or product recognition - of which there has been a decline in over the past few years, because the most notable wargame companies really fell on hard times in the mid 90's. Perhaps the internet will also solve this dilema.

The challenge is for Board wargame companies to become inovative in their sales and marketing strategems. With all the negativity out there I'm not sure you'll see a big change in the near future (but I'm hopeful).
 

Eagle4ty

Elder Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
3,785
Reaction score
1,420
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
Shipping costs may give them new life.
Yeah, that's one of my hopes also. I also believe that the "old" fgames, those with little glitz appeal to the eye, are actually in a better position for a come back. Can't tell you how many people said the new games are just so "eye heavy". Perhaps the KISS principle has much merit.
 

Blackcloud6

Elder Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2004
Messages
6,845
Reaction score
594
Location
New Baltimore, MI
Country
llUnited States
Can't tell you how many people said the new games are just so "eye heavy".
I agree. There are some games out there with what are cool looking counters at first but the overuse of graphics and colors can make them hard to look at after awhile and take away from function.
 

madDdog67

Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
451
Reaction score
0
Location
VA, USA
Country
llUnited States
I agree. There are some games out there with what are cool looking counters at first but the overuse of graphics and colors can make them hard to look at after awhile and take away from function.
Just curious...do you have a particular one in mind? I've seen some counters that I thought were kind of busy as well. When I first got World at War: Eisenbach Gap, for example, I said "wtf" when saw the counters. Here is an example of the same system, from the impending WWII Western Front module called White Star:



It looks pretty busy, I'll give you that...but those numbers actually provide all the info you'll need to resolve combat with...nothing to look up. It takes a few games to get used to it, but after that, it's a piece of cake.

This game system uses DRs to resolve combat...for example, on this counter, the Sherman unit's AP info is the top left part of the counter. Black number is Range, red number is FP, or the number of dice it rolls per attack, and the white number is the "to hit" number. The top right is his AP defense. Lower left is HE combat, and bottom right is Assault combat. The middle number on the bottom is movement. Morale is handled by the HQ unit...all subordinates of the HQ have the HQ's printed morale.

This system plays quick and easy, and part of that is due to the info on the counters. I already have the 2 published games, and have one more of the WWIII modules on pre-order, in addition to the WWII module. I think MMP better get the new PB/PZ game out soon. :D
 

Blackcloud6

Elder Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2004
Messages
6,845
Reaction score
594
Location
New Baltimore, MI
Country
llUnited States
That is the same counter type used in WaW:EG. Although busy, everything has a function. The counters are usable but take some time getting used to. I don't mind them.
What I don't like is ones that use color and/or watermarks , or background camo for no purpose but to make them look cool. That coolness wears off after awhile but the counters remain tough to look at.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
34
Reaction score
2
Location
Seseme Street.
Country
llUnited States
I look at the counter and say Ouch. Those are what 5/8th or maybe 1/4 of an inch? Charts no longer come inside the manual usually. We always photocopied them anyway. Now with scanners thats allot easier then it was. It don't want to have to bend over a table with a magnifying glass to read all that just so I can be saved a few simple charts.
 

BobO

Argentine Dove Hunter
Joined
Nov 11, 2004
Messages
1,721
Reaction score
77
Location
VA
Country
llUnited States
I look at the counter and say Ouch. Those are what 5/8th or maybe 1/4 of an inch? Charts no longer come inside the manual usually. We always photocopied them anyway. Now with scanners thats allot easier then it was. It don't want to have to bend over a table with a magnifying glass to read all that just so I can be saved a few simple charts.
Scott, is that you?
 

Whizbang1963

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
2,576
Reaction score
100
Location
USA
Country
llUnited States
some companies make it hard for retail outlets to carry their games. My local guy says MMP ignored them at a GAMA event when they were asking if they could order games online to stock in their place, and some other issues. I've tried to get my local guy to try again but because MMP's apparent lack of interest, they're not really motivated.

They do sell GMT, and Clash of Arms, and Decision, even some older AP stuff. Academy Games, and the euro lines.

I tend to use them for purchasing titles that I'm on the fence over and want to see them when they are actually out. I've picked up a few games at their recommendation that I would not have ordinarily purchased that turned out to be awesome.

Wish more of the publishers would return to seeing value in the brick and mortars as they are still a potential source of new gamers...

YMMV
 
Top