VotG : Guns and Gutted buildings

[Jazz]

It seems to me that if B23.423 were to allow MTR to occupy an upper level building it would be spelled :

B23.423 GUNS: No weapon depicted on a 5/8" counter may occupy an upper level of a building [EXC: Mortars; Fortified Building (23.93)].

But it is :

B23.423 GUNS: No weapon depicted on a 5/8" counter may occupy an upper level of a building [EXC: Mortars (B23.85); Fortified Building (23.93)].

The "Mortars (B23.85)" part of the exception refers to B25.85 that specifically allows MTR to occupy rooftop (wich is as per B23.8 an upper level building location).
It says nothing about non rooftop upper level location so the exception should not apply to them.

There are two exceptions listed....one is Mortars on rooftops as you point out. Another is fortified buildings. If a top level of a gutted building is fortified (which means all of the levels of a gutted building hex below it are fortified also) the mortar could set up in the upper level and fire from the roofless location as if it was a roofless factory as defined by VotG/RB rules.

I am not sure if this is the intent of the designers, but VotG has so many fortified buildings called out in SSR and CG rules, it is a distinct possibility that this would be required to set up and shoot a mortar from a gutted upper level.

I would love to hear Tom Morin's take on this....not to mention Perry's....

 

[Tater]

A MTR once assembled is a 5/8" gun that has moved and this seems to contradict the rule in our case.

No, it did not move as a 5/8* counter otherwise it would have needed to be manhandled. It was moved as a dm SW counter.

See V7.2: "All Roofless Factory hex rules (O5.4) apply in the uppermost existing location...except as amended below..."

Can an 82mm MTR occupy a roofless factory hex? Yes! Therefor it can occupy the uppermost level of a gutted building.

Does anything "below" V7.2 amend that? No!

Seems the end of it to me...am I missing something?

 

[apbills]

See V7.2: "All Roofless Factory hex rules (O5.4) apply in the uppermost existing location...except as amended below..."

Can an 82mm MTR occupy a roofless factory hex? Yes! Therefor it can occupy the uppermost level of a gutted building.

Does anything "below" V7.2 amend that? No!

Seems the end of it to me...am I missing something?

You missed something. I do not disagree with the position, however, the rules are not as clear as they should be. O5.4 never addresses upper level Locations since it doesn't have to. It never states 5/8" MTRs can set up in a roofless factory - since by default the Location is at Ground level and it can set up there regardless of being roofless or not. It only states Indirect Fire (O5.45) is allowed. Even that rule talks about spotting for "an adjacent ground-level unit in a Roofless Factory Hex".

From a logical progression, O5.4 does not allow 5/8" MTRs in Upper Level building Locations, it only allows Indirect Fire from roofless factory hexes. Since V7.2 does not amend the rule, the rules do not actually permit it.

I believe this is an error, however, that is just me.

I believe V7.7 needs to include the exception to allow 5/8" MTRs in Upper Level Roofless Building Locations, without them being fortified. This would connect all the dots and make it clear. The issue is with the B23.85 rule, not the O5.4 rule. That rule only talks about rooftops, not other Upper Level Locations of a building.

 

[Tater]

You missed something. I do not disagree with the position, however, the rules are not as clear as they should be. O5.4 never addresses upper level Locations since it doesn't have to. It never states 5/8" MTRs can set up in a roofless factory - since by default the Location is at Ground level and it can set up there regardless of being roofless or not. It only states Indirect Fire (O5.45) is allowed. Even that rule talks about spotting for "an adjacent ground-level unit in a Roofless Factory Hex".

Are you saying that the designer wasn't aware that all roofless factory locations are ground level?

From a logical progression, O5.4 does not allow 5/8" MTRs in Upper Level building Locations, it only allows Indirect Fire from roofless factory hexes. Since V7.2 does not amend the rule, the rules do not actually permit it.

It says "ALL" roofless factory rules. The parenthetical "(O5.4)" is not exclusive and is only one of the rules that apply to "roofless" factors.

 

[apbills]

Are you saying that the designer wasn't aware that all roofless factory locations are ground level?

No. I am saying the designer was, and knew he didn't need to address Upper Levels - and didn't.
It says "ALL" roofless factory rules. The parenthetical "(O5.4)" is not exclusive and is only one of the rules that apply to "roofless" factors.

So where in "ALL" the roofless factory rules does it allow a 5/8" MTR in an Upper Level building Location?

 

[apbills]

Tater,

I think I missunderstood your first question.

I think the VotG designer felt the roofless factory rules allowed for the mortars to be fired from upper level roofless buildings. The RB design has no reason to address this since there were no such Locations in RB.

 

[Tater]

So where in "ALL" the roofless factory rules does it allow a 5/8" MTR in an Upper Level building Location?

It says apply ALL the roofless factory hex rules to the upper most location of a gutted building. A roofless factory, besides being roofless, is a factory hex. By rule (O5.6) a 5/8"MTR can set-up in a factory hex.

Look, I didn't write this rule, I am just applying it. If ALL the roofless factory hex rules apply to the upper most location of a gutted building then I can set-up an 82mm MTR in that location. Seriously, do you think the wording of this rule was an accident? I don't...I think they knew exactly what they were doing.

 

[Tater]

Tater,

I think I missunderstood your first question.

I think the VotG designer felt the roofless factory rules allowed for the mortars to be fired from upper level roofless buildings. The RB design has no reason to address this since there were no such Locations in RB.

Really, but then why mention that very thing in V7.7 again? In fact, if that was all they wanted to cover (i.e., indirect fire) then the wording in V7.7 is much more direct and simple. So no, I think the reason they used this very specific wording in V7.2 was because they wanted that upper level location treated like a factory hex of the roofless varitey...including Gun set-up.

To depart into the realm of realism...what makes a building otherwise difficult for a Gun to set-up in? I would say the ceiling and walls. In a gutted building, on the roofless (ceiling-less) upper level these restrictions are greatly reduced. In fact, it would be more like a factory hex than a building location...thus the rule.

I wonder why Master Tom hasn't chimed in on this?

 

[apbills]

It says apply ALL the roofless factory hex rules to the upper most location of a gutted building. A roofless factory, besides being roofless, is a factory hex. By rule (O5.6) a 5/8"MTR can set-up in a factory hex.

Look, I didn't write this rule, I am just applying it. If ALL the roofless factory hex rules apply to the upper most location of a gutted building then I can set-up an 82mm MTR in that location. Seriously, do you think the wording of this rule was an accident? I don't...I think they knew exactly what they were doing.

I am assuming that they stated "all Roofless Factory hex rules (O5.4)" since that paragraph in Section O is titled "Roofless Factory Hex". You are stretching the rules, since nothing in the O5.4 rules addresses placement of a Gun. Following your logic, since an AFV may enter and setup in a Roofless Factory Hex, it may setup in an upper level gutted building. In fact, any Gun that could normally setup in a Roofless Factory Hex could setup in a non-fortified upper level gutted building.

Once more - I agree that Mortars should be able to setup in an upper level gutted building. I think the intent of the rules was to allow this. I think it was an oversight in how the rules in Chapter V were written, and it probably should be clarified. There would be NO issue if the B23.423 exception for Mortars did not reference the B23.85 rule which is specifically for rooftops.

All it needs is minor clarification and any confusion would be eliminated.

 

[CoryC70]

An AFV couldn't set up in a roofless upper level hex as this isn't an accessible location for it. Since it cannot enter the upper level, it can't setup there either. Mortars can be transported to the upper levels in dm form, so may set up there or be moved there.

 

[cyril]

No, it did not move as a 5/8* counter otherwise it would have needed to be manhandled. It was moved as a dm SW counter.

See V7.2: "All Roofless Factory hex rules (O5.4) apply in the uppermost existing location...except as amended below..."

Can an 82mm MTR occupy a roofless factory hex? Yes! Therefor it can occupy the uppermost level of a gutted building.

Does anything "below" V7.2 amend that? No!

Seems the end of it to me...am I missing something?

We 've been through this case at the thread start : The part of O5 that allows guns to set up in a roofless factory is O5.6 not O5.4.
V7.2 only refers to O5.4 not O5.6. Hence, I would not conclude that V7.2 support the MTR placement in upper level of a gutted building.

I've still haven't find something in the RB to support that except via the fortification of several building locations (from ground level to the 2nd wich is quite expensive).

 

[Tater]

I am assuming that they stated "all Roofless Factory hex rules (O5.4)" since that paragraph in Section O is titled "Roofless Factory Hex". You are stretching the rules, since nothing in the O5.4 rules addresses placement of a Gun. Following your logic, since an AFV may enter and setup in a Roofless Factory Hex, it may setup in an upper level gutted building. In fact, any Gun that could normally setup in a Roofless Factory Hex could setup in a non-fortified upper level gutted building.

An AFV could not set-up in the upper level of a gutted building even applying "all" the roofless factory rules because it has no vehicular sized entrance and there is no road/rail leading up to the upper level...thus a vehicle couldn't enter the location during play and thus can't set-up in that location at start (A2.9).

Any Gun can set-up in the upper level of a gutted building.

The rule says "all". Rule O5.4 are just some of the rules that apply.

 

[Tater]

We 've been through this case at the thread start : The part of O5 that allows guns to set up in a roofless factory is O5.6 not O5.4.
V7.2 only refers to O5.4 not O5.6. Hence, I would not conclude that V7.2 support the MTR placement in upper level of a gutted building.

The wording says "all" rules. Referencing just one of "all" the rules is not a limitation...it is just a starting point.

 

[apbills]

We 've been through this case at the thread start : The part of O5 that allows guns to set up in a roofless factory is O5.6 not O5.4.
V7.2 only refers to O5.4 not O5.6. Hence, I would not conclude that V7.2 support the MTR placement in upper level of a gutted building.

I've still haven't find something in the RB to support that except via the fortification of several building locations (from ground level to the 2nd wich is quite expensive).

Just to clarify, O5.6 allows all categories of Guns to setup in an RB Factory. This is not something special about Roofless Factory Hexes.

Tate's logic, at least as far as I can tell, is that since you can setup a Mortar in a Roofless Factory Hex, you can set it up in an Upper Level gutted building, regardless of the B23 rules. My absurb suggestion, concerning AFVs, is following his logic. My not so absurd logic is that based on his logic, other Guns may also be setup in such upper level buildings, since they may also be in Roofless Factory Hexes.

I then point out the exception that allows mortars in upper level building locations specifically calls out Rooftops, not other levels. This is where the disconnect is. Until VotG, there where no such upper level, roofless building Locations. (although in reality you could have an upper level rubble Locations, which would be governed by rubble rules I think).

The question is, does the exception in B23.423
"23.423 GUNS: No weapon depicted on a 5/8" counter may occupy an upper level of a building [EXC: Mortars (
23.85); Fortified Building (23.93)]."apply to all upper level building Locations, or just Rooftops as addressed in B23.85?

If it applies to all Locations, there is no problem.

 

[apbills]

An AFV could not set-up in the upper level of a gutted building even applying "all" the roofless factory rules because it has no vehicular sized entrance and there is no road/rail leading up to the upper level...thus a vehicle couldn't enter the location during play and thus can't set-up in that location at start (A2.9).

Any Gun can set-up in the upper level of a gutted building.

The rule says "all". Rule O5.4 are just some of the rules that apply.

The rule says "All Roofless Factory hex rules (O5.4) apply in the uppermost existing location "

It does not state All Factory rules apply.

Since O5.4 and its subsections are "all" of the Roofless Factory Hex rules, what other rules do you want to apply?
It is clear you want to apply O5.6, which gives all Guns the ability to set up in a RB Factory Location. How far down the chain of rules are you willing to go? Clearly the AFV rules give limits you are not willing to drop (an neither am I). Why are you willing to drop the limits for upper level guns in section B?

I would think that ONLY O5.4 and its sub paragraphs (O5.41 - O5.48) would apply since that is ALL of the Roofless Factory Hex rules. All other rules for upper level buildings would apply unchanged (unless specified in V7).

 

[Tater]

The rule says "All Roofless Factory hex rules (O5.4) apply in the uppermost existing location "

It does not state All Factory rules apply.

A Roofless Factory Hex is a factory hex. If the factory hex rules don't apply then not all the "roofless factory" hex rules are being applied.

Since O5.4 and its subsections are "all" of the Roofless Factory Hex rules, what other rules do you want to apply?

That is NOT all the rules that apply to roofless factory hexes.

It is clear you want to apply O5.6, which gives all Guns the ability to set up in a RB Factory Location. How far down the chain of rules are you willing to go? Clearly the AFV rules give limits you are not willing to drop (an neither am I). Why are you willing to drop the limits for upper level guns in section B?

I don't "want" to do anything other than play by the rules. I am not following a chain...and it isn't a matter of willing. The rule clearly states "all" rules for roofless factory hex. I am playing it the way I see it.

I would think that ONLY O5.4 and its sub paragraphs (O5.41 - O5.48) would apply since that is ALL of the Roofless Factory Hex rules. All other rules for upper level buildings would apply unchanged (unless specified in V7).

Again, are you saying that factory rules do not apply to roofless factory hexes?

 

[cyril]

IMHO, it is specific roofless factory rules O5.4 that applies to roofless gutted building locations. One can conceive this as both are supposed to be roofless.

If the intend of V7.2 was that all red barricade factory rules applies to gutted building location the reference in V7.2 would have been O.5 (the whole red barricade factory paragraph).

 

[pward]

Tate, I think you're taking the "all" part a little too far. (Edit - cyril beat me to the punch in a lot fewer words...)

V7.2 references the O5.4 Roofless Factory Hex rules for the uppermost location. V7.2 does not turn the upper location into a Factory Hex or Location, it deals with the missing roof. Just because the O.54 rules only existed for factories in RB, does not mean that roofless locations in VotG become Factories.

Factories in VotG use the O5 rules in their entirety (V6.1) in addition to the gutted rules applied from V7.2 (which references O5.4) for gutted VotG factories. (Kinda redundant, but the artwork is different.)

O5.4 - Definition and example.
O5.41 - Factory debris rules. Deals with TEM and LOS within the Factory. Contradicted by the V7.3 rules for TEM/LOS in gutted non-factory buildings.
O5.42 - MP/MF costs, nicely reinforced by the V7.4 additional cost to enter a non-factory building location in a gutted building. Yet still not Factory costs for entry. (I missed that before, conscripts moving without a leader into gutted buildings = no assault move; and advance = CX...)
O5.43 - LOS - I don't think this is going to happen much in VotG, but could happen from some of the level 2 locations into nearby roofless locations.
O5.44 - EC and weather - so EC and Weather affect the gutted building (no windows would tend to do that). Same thing for Wind and SMOKE in O5.441.
O5.45 - Indirect Fire - Allows indirect fire, without regard to size of the gun or SW. This is repeated in 7.7 for some reason, but 7.7 affirms the +1TEM per level above rule that would be missing if O5.45 is the sole source for TEM in gutted buildings.
O5.46 - Rubble - still possible.
O5.47 - Sighting and Aerial TEM - repeated in V7.6 with additions that affirm the normal rules for the non-roofless locations.
O5.48 - NVR and Illumination - I'm not sure this needs any chapter V references, since I don't recall any interior gutted building locations on the VotG map. (And I seem to recall that NVR stops at the first building location, and starshells can be fired from a building location as long as it's not internal.)

Generally speaking the O5.4 rules are amended in V7.x when Factory behavior would be the norm, such as interior TEM and LOS or MF/MP costs. On this basis alone, and since neither V7 nor O5.4 reference any extra capacity for Gun setup (just indirect fire), I don't think the upper-most level of a gutted VotG building can contain a Gun that would not otherwise be able to setup there.

Being able to fire indirectly from the uppermost location, requires that the indirect fire weapon be allowed to setup there. We've also covered the "loophole" that allows an 81/82mm MTR to be carried to that location as a DM SW counter. This might not be so clear if there were larger mortars available to either side, such as a 120mm that can't DM.

 

[pward]

IMHO, it is specific roofless factory rules O5.4 that applies to roofless gutted building locations. One can conceive this as both are supposed to be roofless.

If the intend of V7.2 was that all red barricade factory rules applies to gutted building location the reference in V7.2 would have been O.5 (the whole red barricade factory paragraph).

Well said. I would also add that they would have road/rail entrances or large center dots (in the multi-hex buildings) to define them as Factories.

 

[Tater]

Well said. I would also add that they would have road/rail entrances or large center dots (in the multi-hex buildings) to define them as Factories.

Not if they just wanted to have the roofless factory rules to apply ONLY in the upper level locations...oh, wait, that is exactly what they said. :smoke:

BTW, the factory rules do apply to roofless factories and thus the statement "all" brings them very elegantly into play for the upper levels of gutted buildings.

I don't think I am taking the "all" part of the rule to far or to short...looks just right to me. So far no one has presented any possible conundrum to the interpretation.

As far as I can tell, the upper level of a gutted building is pretty much treated like a roofless factory hex and that is what the rule is saying. It just doesn't seem all that complicated to me.