VotG : Guns and Gutted buildings

cyril

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It seems to me that Gutted building are regular building in regard to gun occupation (C2.7 if not fortified and B23.9 if fortified).

Hence :

-Russian MTR82 and any AA gun are not allowed in upper level of any Gutted building.

This seems odd as a MMC could easily portage a dm MTR in the location.

Is this correct or did I missed something ?
 

Rockford

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Hence :

-Russian MTR82 and any AA gun are not allowed in upper level of any Gutted building.

As per B23.424, MTRs are an exception to the general '5/8" counter in upper building level' rule.
 
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Jazz

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Hence :

-Russian MTR82 and any AA gun are not allowed in upper level of any Gutted building.

As per B23.424, MTRs are an exception to the general '5/8" counter in upper building level' rule.
And, just to be complete.... V7 (Gutted Buldings) cites O5.5 (Gutted Factories) which allows a mortar to fire from a roofless location.
 

cyril

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The EXC from B23.423 (B23.424 is for scaling) refers to mortars and rooftops (B23.85).

V7 refers to O.5.5 and O.5.4 but it is O.5.6 that allows every gun to set up in a RB factory.


On a recent VotG thread, Tom Morin writes he likes to place a Russian 82 MTR on a level two gutted building. If he says so it should be legal but as I read the RB I can't find something to back up such a placement.
 

Rockford

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The EXC from B23.423 (B23.424 is for scaling) refers to mortars and rooftops (B23.85).

On a recent VotG thread, Tom Morin writes he likes to place a Russian 82 MTR on a level two gutted building. If he says so it should be legal but as I read the RB I can't find something to back up such a placement.
You're right about the number.
B23.423 GUNS: No weapon depicted on a 5/8" counter may occupy an upper building level [EXC: Mortars (23.85); Fortified Building (23.93)]
While the refered to B23.85 refers specifically to mortars on rooftops, 23.423, the rule in question, uses the term "upper building level". A rooftop is an upper building level, as are the 1st and 2nd levels.
 
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Jazz

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The EXC from B23.423 (B23.424 is for scaling) refers to mortars and rooftops (B23.85).

V7 refers to O.5.5 and O.5.4 but it is O.5.6 that allows every gun to set up in a RB factory.


On a recent VotG thread, Tom Morin writes he likes to place a Russian 82 MTR on a level two gutted building. If he says so it should be legal but as I read the RB I can't find something to back up such a placement.
I answered a bit too quickly...sorry. Reading further, section V7.2 references all of section O5.4, which as a subsection contains O5.45 which does allow mortar fire from a roofless location.

I do see what you mean about O5.6 not being mentioned....but the exception in B23.423 for mortars allows them to be place in an upper level location, although they can only be fired from a rooftop location in a building where a roof is present.
B23.423 GUNS: No weapon depicted on a ⅝" counter may occupy an upper level of a building [EXC: Mortars (23.85); Fortified Building (23.93)].
and
B23.85 GUNS: No ⅝" counter weapon may occupy a rooftop, except for a mortar of ≤ 82mm which must be dm to be portaged to/from the rooftop (or between different Location of it). Such mortars may fire from those rooftops. A Gun may never be Emplaced (C11.2) on a Rooftop.
An argument could be made that the exception in B23.423 which calls out B23.85 which in turn only allows mortars as the only 5/8" gun on rooftops....not sure I agree with that argument, but it can be made.

There is another exception to B23.423. Not sure if this is what Tom was refering to, but a 5/8" gun counter can be placed in an upper level if that upper level location is fortified which implies all the lower levels below it are fortified. This is listed along with mortars as an exception in B23.423. As many fortified building locations that VotG seems to grant, a very real option.

I've used it for AT guns to peek over roadblocks....

I seem to recall somewhere in there I did see words to the effect that AA fire was not possible from a roofless location....but I cannot find the specific citation right now.
 
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cyril

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An argument could be made that the exception in B23.423 which calls out B23.85 which in turn only allows mortars as the only 5/8" gun on rooftops....not sure I agree with that argument, but it can be made.
That is the way I would understand the EXC: from B23.423. It alllows MTR in dm state at level 1 or 2 and in 5/8" form at rooftop.


There is another exception to B23.423. Not sure if this is what Tom was refering to, but a 5/8" gun counter can be placed in an upper level if that upper level location is fortified which implies all the lower levels below it are fortified. This is listed along with mortars as an exception in B23.423. As many fortified building locations that VotG seems to grant, a very real option.

I've used it for AT guns to peek over roadblocks....

B23.93 : Only the usual gun that can set up in a building plus the ART/AT/INF <=76mm can set up in upper level fortified buildings.MTRs are not mentioned...
Furthermore, it is mentioned that "no 5/8" weapon counter may be oved into a fortified building during play" wich would imply one cannot move a MTR during play in a fortified building should the placement of a MTR be actualy allowed.


I seem to recall somewhere in there I did see words to the effect that AA fire was not possible from a roofless location....but I cannot find the specific citation right now.
AA gun can be placed on single level fortified gutted building. On such instance, the question of AA fire arise (but is specificaly forbiden in O5.45).
 

Jazz

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B23.93 : Only the usual gun that can set up in a building plus the ART/AT/INF <=76mm can set up in upper level fortified buildings.MTRs are not mentioned....
Actually the specific quote is

A2.7 PROHIBITED HEXES: A Gun cannot occupy an upper building level [EXC: Fortified Buildings and mortars on Rooftops], nor can it occupy a Water Obstacle, crag [EXC: mortars; B17.4], marsh, or Irrigated-paddy (G8.12) unless dm and possessed or in/on a vehicle/boat. Small-Target-Size Guns and AT/INF Guns that are not large targets are the only ⅝" non-vehicular Gun counters that may ever occupy a building/rubble hex [EXC: Rooftop mortars (B23.85); Fortified Building (B23.93)].
Note that the list of allowed gun types/calibers includes small target sized guns, and just about all mortars are small target size.

Furthermore, it is mentioned that "no 5/8" weapon counter may be oved into a fortified building during play" wich would imply one cannot move a MTR during play in a fortified building should the placement of a MTR be actualy allowed.
.
By the same token, any gun on a 5/8" counter cannot be moved into an upper level location, which would make all this talk of upper level fortified locations meaningless.
 

cyril

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OK, you've find the answer : Focused on the gun types I have overlooked that small target guns were allowed in buildings.

Thanks.
 

hershmeister

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2 bonus tips to remember -

1) the Russian 82mm mrt can be fired once then made DM or vice versa.
2) its a slog dragging that dm thing up and down burnt out building locations (2mf each level change!) best you can hope to do is move one level then advance vs difficult terrain to another level and become CX.
 

'Ol Fezziwig

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2 bonus tips to remember -


2) its a slog dragging that dm thing up and down burnt out building locations (2mf each level change!) best you can hope to do is move one level then advance vs difficult terrain to another level and become CX.

...or, get one of those feisty commissars to offer 'encouragement'...
 

Tater

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B23.93 : Only the usual gun that can set up in a building plus the ART/AT/INF <=76mm can set up in upper level fortified buildings.MTRs are not mentioned...
Furthermore, it is mentioned that "no 5/8" weapon counter may be oved into a fortified building during play" wich would imply one cannot move a MTR during play in a fortified building should the placement of a MTR be actualy allowed.
When dm a Gun MTR is not a 5/8" counter. So it looks to me like a MTR, while dm, could be both moved in and out of a fortified location.
 

apbills

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Oh, really? This is only true if it keeps Rate, right?
Wrong.

From the notes: "The later versions (BM 41 and 43) had wheels, thus obviating the need to disassemble the mortar for long hauls; therefore, after 1941 this mortar can be fired once in the same phase either prior to becoming dm or after reverting to nondm status."

Nothing about rate.
 

apbills

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When dm a Gun MTR is not a 5/8" counter. So it looks to me like a MTR, while dm, could be both moved in and out of a fortified location.
I would like to agree with this logic. The rule in question (at least in RB) is CG5 ..."A Gun/AFV set up in a Pillbox or Fortified Building Location may never be moved during the course of that CG [EXC: if Eliminated]. "

Based on that, I think if you portaged the dm MTR into the Location you get rid the "set up" stipulation. Even if set up in the Location, once dm, it is no longer a "Gun".

A9.8 calls dm MTRs dm SW, so I would concur that a dm MTR is not a Gun.

The index defines a Gun as "or non-firing purposes, any non-vehicular weapon on a 5/8" counter.", so if dm, the MTR is not a Gun, backing up the A9.8 reference and language.
 

cyril

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I like this interpratation and would have no problem to play it this way.
I also don't like that one can portage a dm Mtr to a second level roofless building and not be allowed to assemble it unless the location is fortified.

Yet, shouldn't one stick to the rules wording ?

A MTR once assembled is a 5/8" gun that has moved and this seems to contradict the rule in our case.

Do we need an [EXC: Mtr... , a clarification or do I misread the RB ?
 

apbills

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I like this interpratation and would have no problem to play it this way.
I also don't like that one can portage a dm Mtr to a second level roofless building and not be allowed to assemble it unless the location is fortified.

Yet, shouldn't one stick to the rules wording ?

A MTR once assembled is a 5/8" gun that has moved and this seems to contradict the rule in our case.

Do we need an [EXC: Mtr... , a clarification or do I misread the RB ?
It already exists:

B23.423 GUNS: No weapon depicted on a 5/8" counter may occupy an upper level of a building [EXC: Mortars (
23.85); Fortified Building (23.93)].

So it is moved into the upper level as a SW, it is assembled and becomes a MTR (B23.423 allows), and can fire due to the lack of a roof (O5.45).
 

cyril

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It seems to me that if B23.423 were to allow MTR to occupy an upper level building it would be spelled :

B23.423 GUNS: No weapon depicted on a 5/8" counter may occupy an upper level of a building [EXC: Mortars; Fortified Building (23.93)].

But it is :

B23.423 GUNS: No weapon depicted on a 5/8" counter may occupy an upper level of a building [EXC: Mortars (B23.85); Fortified Building (23.93)].

The "Mortars (B23.85)" part of the exception refers to B25.85 that specifically allows MTR to occupy rooftop (wich is as per B23.8 an upper level building location).
It says nothing about non rooftop upper level location so the exception should not apply to them.
 

pward

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Mortars can occupy rooftops and fire from there. If you put one on level 1 of a building (that still has a roof) you could assemble it if you wished, but don't try firing it...

When the roof is gone on a gutted building, the uppermost level functions like a roof location for firing mortars, just with a better TEM, and other nice "building" features that a roof lacks.
 

apbills

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It seems to me that if B23.423 were to allow MTR to occupy an upper level building it would be spelled :

B23.423 GUNS: No weapon depicted on a 5/8" counter may occupy an upper level of a building [EXC: Mortars; Fortified Building (23.93)].

But it is :

B23.423 GUNS: No weapon depicted on a 5/8" counter may occupy an upper level of a building [EXC: Mortars (B23.85); Fortified Building (23.93)].

The "Mortars (B23.85)" part of the exception refers to B25.85 that specifically allows MTR to occupy rooftop (wich is as per B23.8 an upper level building location).
It says nothing about non rooftop upper level location so the exception should not apply to them.
You got me on that one, and I haven't found an answer.

Given that gutted buildings only came in existance in VotG, and the rules reference the roofless factory rules of RB, I think it is an oversight. The RB rules did not have to addess upper level Locations since they where just dealing with factories. Since the rule allows indirect fire out of such a Location, I suspect the designers missed this nuance in the Section B rules. I think the intent is clear to allow all mortars, not just SW mortars, to fire from gutted building locations.

Perhaps an errata is necessary, but for now, I will continue to play that they can fire, even though I can not find a specific exception stating they may be in an upper level roofless Locations.
 
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