VOTG 1 The First Bid designer question and scenario discussion

[Vic Provost]

What a great AAR.

Agreed, was fun to read! Ah, the good old days...

 

[Carln0130]

Well I'll be damned, I found Ol' Fezziwig's very detailed AAR on an old USB. We played this in the summer of 2002. Here are the highlights of the end game:

"Things now turn to the centre of gravity, the battles’ nexus, the central sector. Nineteen turns, wide swings of fortune, 120 squads lost in total, some 38 vehicles and AFVs knocked out, immobilized or recalled later; it all boils down to the battle for a single ferry: LL28.

Things lead off with a bang as a set DC rubbles a tertiary building on the river. The Germans are curious as to what exactly is going on but have other, more pressing matters to worry about. The resultant clearing of their LOF enables a 76L ART to attempt to place smoke on the docks. The artillerymen fail, placing their rounds in the river instead. Another gun, this one a 76* INF attempts the closer, ADJ shot and they, too, put their rounds into the river. Screening attempts aside, the attack now starts off with scads of Infantry charging the ferry and them consequently getting blown back by the desperate German defensive fires. Of nearly a company of Guardsmen hurled at this building but a single squad and a wounded commissar survive to attempt to contest the building.

In desperation borne of futility, a T-34 attempts to charge the ferry. The attempt is delayed by the drivers’ failure to start the tank on the first try, on the second, he succeeds. The tank charges towards the ferry and blows past the defenders inside the building, heading for the exposed Germans on the pier itself. With a mighty creak and crash, the frail dock plunges into the blackness of the Volga, but takes the Germans, as well as the tank’s crew, with it. Yet another story of sacrifice and honor within the Gothic of Stalingrad…

The second T-34, failing to seize upon a Golden Opportunity, attempts to go the long way towards a more southern ferry to hopefully add his hulk to prevent successful interdiction of the landings. (A question over whether the tank in bypass of LL37 could actually enter MM38 from LL37 was left as a non-factor. In truth, I had realized at that point I could have-and should have-taken an alternate route to LL29 which would have hindered the final German interdiction and given the Russian an incontrovertible victory) In having to accomplish this, he would have had to pass a Collapse DR when other, less risky and, ultimately more beneficial, maneuvers existed.

The climactic close combat is that in name only as a 628cx and the wounded commissar have to either clear the hex of the 838,548 and 2x 8-1 or maintain them in melee. The penultimate 1 to 4 HtoH (+1) against a return attack of 2 to 1 (-2) was an almost forgone conclusion."

Fezz's post-game discussion:

"I would be remiss if I didn't again state <the case for> the exclusion of AFV Hindrance for Interdiction. Yeah, I know, but it would be a shame to play for 30+ hours to have a little tankette take the hard won battle from a deserving German. This could perhaps become an issue in the CGs as well.
Perhaps knowing your opponent is a good way to stave this off, but why take the chance? The Interdiction issue was one I know Mike was very concerned about and in some ways, I agree. I had left a 76* INF in a ferry for that last ditch HE support and also for the s8 (pah!). I just want you to be aware of the many ways the sly Russe may prevent Interdiction: MOL-Ps, T-60s, SMOKE, and OBA, veh Hindrances, FT attacks on buildings/docks...
Of course, these possibilities exist in any scenario, a ruthless, win-at-all-costs player will utilise any and all of these, I don't have any solutions to prevent them, though... Perhaps a Dispatches article spelling out the potential sleazery may head it off well beforehand..."

"As for balance, right now I'd say-based on the premise our playing is 'The Fix'- this is perhaps 55-60% Russian. This is more in large part due to the many options available to the Russian late to prevent Interdiction. I was able to disrupt the Germans from an unimpeded rush by the use of OBA and 82mm MOR fire. One more turn or less effective arty may have made the outcome less in doubt. I was satisfied with the opportunities I had to prevail."

My note: today First Bid on ROAR is 18 Russ to 12 Germ, or.......60% pro-Russ. Ol' Fezziwig nailed the balance 22 years ago!

Nothing ever goes away on the internet .

 

[clubby]

Likewise Mike, we had a blast with VotG, both in PT and when we got the game itself. I might update Siberian Shockwave at some point, the Russians need a tweak or 2 but still a fun scenario to play. FUN HASL! Vic.

Me, Matt Cicero, Jim Aikens and Scott Thompson kicked off CG IV last night. Hopefully we can play into this one for a while. Me and Jim are the Germans.

 

[John Fedoriw]

My note: today First Bid on ROAR is 18 Russ to 12 Germ, or.......60% pro-Russ. Ol' Fezziwig nailed the balance 22 years ago!

After playing the scenario I find that a little surprising. I would expect the odds actually to be slightly in the Germans favor or more even. In my game I felt that an outcome like Olli's :

...the Germans controlled almost all of the waterfront and had two kill stacks with 8-3-8’s and 10-3/2 leaders each had a stack had an FT and two HMG, FT usually stripped the ? From his guys in the buildings to then get hit with 36fp on evens or +1, by this point he had less than quarter of the board left to

...was more likely LOL.

The entire game I felt like I was was gonna get overrun. The Allies largely conscript force plainly cannot stand up to the power that the Axis throws at it. This is exacerbated by the terrible setup limitations imposed on them and the constant stuka threat flying overhead which makes relocation so risky.

I really think the only way I managed to stop the Germans was because he did not push aggressively (IMO). As I said slowing the advance in order to mop up was a mistake IMO. I think if he did not do that the Ruskis would quite likely have fallen underfoot. Mind you in our game I guess the southern most group of Germans did enter somewhat early and I am sure that is an important consideration to how things played out. A later entry for these guys is probably more typical and would really help the Allies.

Still the Russians are simply not strong enough to stop the German advance. They do get good reinforcements on turn 13 but they come in piecemeal and also by then the low visibility somewhat hampers that 10-3's bite. They plugged holes but didn't really reduce the Germs offensive capabilities.

I will concede the point that I made some errors and this made the Allied chances more gloomy. Placing the INF guns towards the front in row K was a bad idea. I wanted to try and hold the Germs at that line in order to give the first round of Russian reinforcements a chance to enter unhindered (disregarding stukas) and find good positions. I felt I needed something to stiffen the line here. However they were not very successful at this for me. Maybe keeping these near the ferries to place smoke at game end is the best use for them. Choosing a couple of better NKVD Strongpoints and better initial positioning of my tanks would have helped me as well.

Even if the Allies do manage to get lots of smoke down at game end to hinder interdiction though there are just so many tall buildings where the Germans can see the ferries from and they have so many MGs that I think the advantage is with the Germans. IMO this is the biggest problem for the Allies.

I think I would want the Axis if playing this scenario for kidneys. Even if they are not the favored side I think I would be more comfortable taking that side rather than the defenders (for my strengths & style of play anyway). They are probably the more fun side to play as well.