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T34

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Japanese tiger was at the end of the war. I believe the Germans just sent blueprints. The Japanese may have made a couple of prototypes, but by this time all armor production was going to the Navy and the Tigers would have eaten up the entire japanese army's allotment of fuel. All new armor remained on the home islands anyway, so none ever saw combat.

But there were a ton of German assets in Chinese hands in 1937. All of chaing kai chek's best divisions were German trained and supplied.
 

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From what I read in the film review the action takes place months after the fall of Shanghai. The rest of the city is watching what is happening at the warehouse. Is this true?
In a general sense, yes, that's true. Shanghai was (and is) bisected by a river with Japanese settlements along the north bank and European ones along the south bank. Further out were Chinese neighborhoods, the most crowded, (in)famous, and contested was Chabei - north of the famous warehouse defended by the 800. After months of combat, the Japanese secured Chabei and compelled remaining Chinese KMT units to withdraw. The 800 who defended the warehouse were the "rearguard" who chose that ground, across the river from western settlements, for public relations purposes. That's consistent with Chiang's larger goal of fighting for Shanghai, and losing his best units there, to get western publicity. Although he is often chided for doing this, it may have worked. The events of Shanghai in 1937 did trigger western ire and are the subject of this movie precisely because westerners saw this first hand and thereby documented it. There were many other fights further inland that are lost to history because Waiguoren (foreigners) did not witness them.
 

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In a general sense, yes, that's true. Shanghai was (and is) bisected by a river with Japanese settlements along the north bank and European ones along the south bank. Further out were Chinese neighborhoods, the most crowded, (in)famous, and contested was Chabei - north of the famous warehouse defended by the 800. After months of combat, the Japanese secured Chabei and compelled remaining Chinese KMT units to withdraw. The 800 who defended the warehouse were the "rearguard" who chose that ground, across the river from western settlements, for public relations purposes. That's consistent with Chiang's larger goal of fighting for Shanghai, and losing his best units there, to get western publicity. Although he is often chided for doing this, it may have worked. The events of Shanghai in 1937 did trigger western ire and are the subject of this movie precisely because westerners saw this first hand and thereby documented it. There were many other fights further inland that are lost to history because Waiguoren (foreigners) did not witness them.
I respectfully disagree. Possibly, Shanghai's defense proved to bring Chinese factions together, but it was the rape of Nanjing that drew Western ire. Shanghai revealed the GMD as corrupt and militarily inept.
 

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In a general sense, yes, that's true. Shanghai was (and is) bisected by a river with Japanese settlements along the north bank and European ones along the south bank. Further out were Chinese neighborhoods, the most crowded, (in)famous, and contested was Chabei - north of the famous warehouse defended by the 800. After months of combat, the Japanese secured Chabei and compelled remaining Chinese KMT units to withdraw. The 800 who defended the warehouse were the "rearguard" who chose that ground, across the river from western settlements, for public relations purposes. That's consistent with Chiang's larger goal of fighting for Shanghai, and losing his best units there, to get western publicity. Although he is often chided for doing this, it may have worked. The events of Shanghai in 1937 did trigger western ire and are the subject of this movie precisely because westerners saw this first hand and thereby documented it. There were many other fights further inland that are lost to history because Waiguoren (foreigners) did not witness them.
Fascinating. (I'm Spock).
 

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I respectfully disagree. Possibly, Shanghai's defense proved to bring Chinese factions together, but it was the rape of Nanjing that drew Western ire. Shanghai revealed the GMD as corrupt and militarily inept.
In fact, Shanghai drove the German advisors out of their minds and convinced them that the GMD was too corrupt and incompetent to be a valid ally. They were just as fascist as Germany, Italy and Japan--who had been an enemy of opportunity in WWI--but more incompetent. In fact, it is not unfair to say that Japan was far more democratic than China in 1937.
 

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In fact, Shanghai drove the German advisors out of their minds and convinced them that the GMD was too corrupt and incompetent to be a valid ally. They were just as fascist as Germany, Italy and Japan--who had been an enemy of opportunity in WWI--but more incompetent. In fact, it is not unfair to say that Japan was far more democratic than China in 1937.
Opinions differ, but recent scholarship has framed what happened in Nanking as the last chapter of the Shanghai Saga. In other words, it was the fighting in Shanghai that enraged the Japanese to retaliate with severe retribution in Nanking. They were indeed furious that the KMT started resisting in Shanghai. As for the German advisors, they were not Chiang's primary concern; he sought American support, and got it. Losing the German advisors was a small price to pay. It is totally inaccurate to claim Japan was more democratic than China in 1937. In 1911, China ditched its Emperor and aspired to democracy, even establishing a republic under well respected Sun Yat Sen. True, that all feel apart and warlordism reemerged, but Japan clung to its Emperor and Bushido, not a shred of democracy there.
 

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Well, Japan was holding elections in 1937, China wasn't. Even if you dont like the results of elections, you have to consider them democratic. After all, if having a monarch makes you undemocratic, Britain is still undemocratic.
 

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This is a simple case of discerning a wolf in sheep's clothing.

When it comes to elections and monarchs, one needs to look beyond superficial appearances and get into the substance underneath to determine the truth. Autocracies and dictatorships (like 30s Japan) hold "elections" all the time to have the appearance of democracy. But those elections, like Japan's farce in the 30s, have predetermined outcomes, or do not matter, and are neither free nor fair; so they are NOT elections at all even if people went to polls and "voted." It's those superficial mechanics that dictators rely on to deceive people who accept superficial appearances. Meanwhile, the autocrats and their cabal assassinate the opposition as happened in 30s Japan. As for monarchs, lots of well established, legitimate democracies hold on to them for ceremony even though real power lies with elected officials - that's most of Europe. Again, the superficial title "King" does not bestow power in modern democracy, as it once did in the Middle Ages.

If I knew nothing of ASL, but laid out the map and pieces while claiming to "play" would that be credible? In a matter of minutes you could detect the fraud.
 
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T34

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This is a simple case of discerning a wolf in sheep's clothing.

When it comes to elections and monarchs, one needs to look beyond superficial appearances and get into the substance underneath to determine the truth. Autocracies and dictatorships (like 30s Japan) hold "elections" all the time to have the appearance of democracy. But those elections, like Japan's farce in the 30s, have predetermined outcomes, or do not matter, and are neither free nor fair; so they are NOT elections at all even if people went to polls and "voted." It's those superficial mechanics that dictators rely on to deceive people who accept superficial appearances. Meanwhile, the autocrats and their cabal assassinate the opposition as happened in 30s Japan. As for monarchs, lots of well established, legitimate democracies hold on to them for ceremony even though real power lies with elected officials - that's most of Europe. Again, the superficial title "King" does not bestow power in modern democracy, as it once did in the Middle Ages.

If I knew nothing of ASL, but laid out the map and pieces while claiming to "play" would that be credible? In a matter of minutes you could detect the fraud.
Um, no. There were multiple parties in pre-war Japan. At least up until about 1939. There were war parties and peace parties. The war parties won. The emperor was a mere figurehead--much less involved than the British monarchy at the time, which was variably working to keep the UK out of war and stay neutral or side with the Nazis.

 

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Japanese politics induce headaches. One party stands for peaceful expansion, two others call for military use for expansion, another wishes for diplomatic
union with Germany and Italy, etc. What happened is that through assassinations and public cowing, the militarists came into power and desired no less
than the Pacific come under their benevolent(?) governorship. "Asia for the Asians" turned out to be nothing but "all for Japan, nothing for anybody else."
This is just my take on things, I am not trying to start an argument.
 

T34

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Japanese politics induce headaches. One party stands for peaceful expansion, two others call for military use for expansion, another wishes for diplomatic
union with Germany and Italy, etc. What happened is that through assassinations and public cowing, the militarists came into power and desired no less
than the Pacific come under their benevolent(?) governorship. "Asia for the Asians" turned out to be nothing but "all for Japan, nothing for anybody else."
This is just my take on things, I am not trying to start an argument.
Yes, I absolutely agree. I'm not arguing that Japan was a model democracy, only that it was more democratic than China. In 1937, China was far more aligned with Nazi Germany than Japan.
 

R Hooks

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Yes, I absolutely agree. I'm not arguing that Japan was a model democracy, only that it was more democratic than China. In 1937, China was far more aligned with Nazi Germany than Japan.
I would say both Japan and China were seeking alliance with Germany, and Japan won.
 

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By the way, Shanghai 37 would make a great ASL campaign game with KMT 4-4-7s and their Vickers tanks smashing into Japanese positions around the Naval Depot north of "Little Tokyo."
Hushan Docks, one of my favorite ASL scenarios.
 

T34

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Hushan Docks, one of my favorite ASL scenarios.
I would say both Japan and China were seeking alliance with Germany, and Japan won.
This is simply not the case. Japan knew that the Tripartite Pact would annoy the US. The somewhat naive and proud foreign minister that signed it was chastised for doing so on his return. However, Japanese honor prevented them from renouncing it.

However, I am again not arguing that Japan was a paragon of virtue, but rather that it had far more democratic institutions in place than China in 1937. China, at best, was a squabbling hoard of bloodthirsty warlords, and I include Chiang in that.

And don't jump on me for being pro communist (I am) because I find Mao and the current batch of miscreants appalling.

I don't even remember how we got onto this who lost China debate, but it is tedious so I'm going to stop commenting on it now.
 

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Just found out Chesty Puller was there and almost started a war with Japan 4 years earlier! Darn it, he should have been in the film. I guess he pulled his .45 on a Japanese officer who entered the international zone in Shanghai with about 800 troops to capture some Chinese. Chesty with 30 marines kicked them out, without their prisoners. Puller never ceases to amaze.
 
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