SW and sqd FF/SFF/FPF interaction

labelcd6

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  1. All hexes are open ground.
  2. A1 has a 447 holding an LMG.
  3. A5 has a 747.
  4. 747 moves to A4.
  5. LMG fires to no effect.
  6. 747 moves to A3.
  7. What happens when 447 and LMG both fire? Is LMG final fired and 447 first fired?
 

jrv

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What happens when 447 and LMG both fire? Is LMG final fired and 447 first fired?
When a squad uses SFF with a SW when its inherent is not marked, it can add its full inherent firepower to the half FP of the SW, but both its SW and its inherent are marked with a final fire marker [A8.3].

JR
 

labelcd6

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Thanks, JR!

I find A8.3 impenetrable. And I thought I was a good reader...
 

Binchois

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Thanks, JR!

I find A8.3 impenetrable. And I thought I was a good reader...
The reverse is generally true too: if the squad had First Fired its inherent FP, it could fire the LMG alone as First Fire (on the next expended MF). But if it would rather combine its inherent FP plus the LMG, both would be halved and marked Final Fire. There are some additional restrictions and requirements in this situation (including Sustained Fire), but that only gets us deeper into the weeds...

And while I agree that A8.3 is dense, you might have missed all this if you are using an early copy of the ASLRB. A final sentence was added to A8.3 which answers your question succinctly:

If a unit, or any SW/Gun it possesses, uses Subsequent First Fire (or Intensive Fire) then that unit and all its SW/Guns are marked with a Final Fire counter.
 

mgmasl

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But if it would rather combine its inherent FP plus the LMG, both would be halved and marked Final Fire.
IMHO LMG fire at full FP and IFP is halved.. Both of them are marked with a Final Fire counter
 

Binchois

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IMHO LMG fire at full FP and IFP is halved.. Both of them are marked with a Final Fire counter
No, because Area Fire is one of the consequences of Sustained Fire (A9.3) which the LMG must use if fired in this circumstance (back to A8.3).
 

mgmasl

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But it´s the first time LMG fires.. So it´s using normal fire for LMG and SFF for the squad only.. The fact that both of them will be marked FF doesn´t mean LMG is using SFF.. There is a Q&A vs a Squad marked First Fire using an ATR at full FP combined with the halved FP of the squad.. Final Fire is a different issue..
 

Jeff Sewall

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But it´s the first time LMG fires.. So it´s using normal fire for LMG and SFF for the squad only.. The fact that both of them will be marked FF doesn´t mean LMG is using SFF.. There is a Q&A vs a Squad marked First Fire using an ATR at full FP combined with the halved FP of the squad.. Final Fire is a different issue..
Re-read the original post. The LMG fired first by itself.
 

mgmasl

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The reverse is generally true too: if the squad had First Fired its inherent FP, it could fire the LMG alone as First Fire (on the next expended MF). But if it would rather combine its inherent FP plus the LMG, both would be halved and marked Final Fire...
Sorry, refering to this second example.. I think Squad has fired and LMG hasn´t fired yet.. But never sure with this strange language :rolleyes:
 

jrv

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The two cases are not symmetrical. If the MG uses SFF but the inherent is not marked with a first fire counter, the MG FP is halved but the inherent is not. If the inherent uses SFF but the MG is not yet marked, the MG is considered to be using SFF anyway and both FPs are halved. In both cases all are marked with Final Fire.

JR
 

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A8.3
May an unmarked ATR fire as Defensive First Fire firegrouped with its manning squad who is firing as Subsequent First Fire?
For example, if a 6-2-8 marked with First Fire with an unmarked ATR fires at a target 2 hexes away with no closer targets, which
is true: 1) 6-2-8 ONLY may fire for 2 FP; 2) 6-2-8 may fire with its ATR for 4 FP
A. Yes, 4 FP.


This is the Q&A I´m refering about.. I think it says clearly SW is not using SFF but normal fire at full FP.
 

jrv

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A8.3
May an unmarked ATR fire as Defensive First Fire firegrouped with its manning squad who is firing as Subsequent First Fire?
For example, if a 6-2-8 marked with First Fire with an unmarked ATR fires at a target 2 hexes away with no closer targets, which
is true: 1) 6-2-8 ONLY may fire for 2 FP; 2) 6-2-8 may fire with its ATR for 4 FP
A. Yes, 4 FP.


This is the Q&A I´m refering about.. I think it says clearly SW is not using SFF but normal fire at full FP.
An ATR is not a MG. A8.3 is clear that MGs/IFE use SFF if the inherent does.

Since ATRs can't use SFF, if A8.3 applied to all SW then an ATR would not be able to participate in a FG with the squad using SFF.

JR
 

mgmasl

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An ATR is not a MG. A8.3 is clear that MGs/IFE use SFF if the inherent does.

Since ATRs can't use SFF, if A8.3 applied to all SW then an ATR would not be able to participate in a FG with the squad using SFF.

JR
You mean the squad may use IFP as SFF combined with a FT at full FP, similar to the use of the ATR?

Time to check this rule again.. I think I’ve always played firing MGs at full FP in this case.. :unsure:
 

klasmalmstrom

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You mean the squad may use IFP as SFF combined with a FT at full FP, similar to the use of the ATR?
A FT can't be part of a FG.

A22.31 FG: A FT may not combine FP with any other unit/weapon—including the unit firing it or even another FT [EXC: OVR; D7.11].
 

labelcd6

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You mean the squad may use IFP as SFF combined with a FT at full FP, similar to the use of the ATR?

Time to check this rule again.. I think I’ve always played firing MGs at full FP in this case.. :unsure:
While I love and am in awe of the rulebook ;-), this is one of the sections that baffles me with its simultaneous importance, complexity, and total lack of clarity and thoroughness.
 

labelcd6

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The reverse is generally true too: if the squad had First Fired its inherent FP, it could fire the LMG alone as First Fire (on the next expended MF). But if it would rather combine its inherent FP plus the LMG, both would be halved and marked Final Fire. There are some additional restrictions and requirements in this situation (including Sustained Fire), but that only gets us deeper into the weeds...

And while I agree that A8.3 is dense, you might have missed all this if you are using an early copy of the ASLRB. A final sentence was added to A8.3 which answers your question succinctly:

If a unit, or any SW/Gun it possesses, uses Subsequent First Fire (or Intensive Fire) then that unit and all its SW/Guns are marked with a Final Fire counter.
My RB does not have that language. Thanks!
 

klasmalmstrom

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My RB does not have that language. Thanks!
It's errata from ASL Journal 6.

A8.3: Add at the end “If a unit, or any SW/Gun it possesses, uses Subsequent First Fire (or Intensive Fire) then that unit and all its SW/Guns are marked with a Final Fire counter.”
 
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