Starter Kit: Fire Sequence Questions

robertdelwood

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I have a stack with the following German units:
8-1
8-0
HMG
4-4-7

During the defensive fire phase, I'd like to:

1) Firstly fire the 4-4-7 and 8-0. I understand that if the 4-4-7 cowers it'd be marked with Final Fire and could not then fire the HMG. Correct? Hence the 8-0.

2) Then fire the HMG and 8-1 at another target in the same phase.
a) Can the 4-4-7 also fire (if qualifying for subsequent first fire) with the HMG and 8-1, even though the squad had been earlier directed by an 8-0?
b) If not, had it not been directed by a leader earlier, could it now be directed by the 8-1?
 

Jwil2020

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I'm not sure I fully understand the order of events in your examples, but based upon what I think you are asking:

1. Yes. A unit that cowers is marked with a FF marker which would make it unable to fire the HMG unless during Final Protective Fire. I assume the 4-4-7 was the unit possessing the HMG. Remember, either or both of the leaders could fire the HMG if it was in their possession (see 4.1 for restrictions). Yes. Using the 8-0 to direct fire prevents cowering.

2. Yes. The HMG could now fire at another target or same target now moved to new hex. If so, place First Fire Marker on HMG (actually one marker to indicate that both the squad and HMG have now used D1F. The 8-1 can direct as it has not performed any action.

a. Yes. (If I understand you correctly that the squad has fired but the MG has not) the 4-4-7 could instead join the HMG. For the 4-4-7 it would be SFF, for the HMG it would be D1F. I see no reason why the 8-1 could not direct regardless of whether the 8-0 directed earlier since the 8-1 has not performed any action yet and you are essentially forming a new FG. Also, don't forget to lower the MG B# by two if using SFF or FPF.

Also note, that if the 4-4-7 decided to SFF both it AND the MG would get marked with a Final Fire marker, whether or not the squad fires the MG (last sentence 3rd para under 3.3.3). An easy to miss (and misunderstand) rule.

Except for the dual leader variable, your situation is addressed almost exactly in the MPh and D1F example on p. 15.

I hope that helps.
 
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robertdelwood

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In the same case, if the squad possessing the HMG is broken, could a leader take possession of the HMG from the squad during the Rally Phase?

Since the HMG is 4 PP, if the squad routs it would have to drop the HMG first. But if it doesn't actually leave the location, then no one can ever wrest possession from a broken unit?
 

Robin Reeve

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A leader may try to recover a SW from a broken unit - in the full rulebook at least - but must roll for recovery.
Here is the text of the full rule : "A4.44 ... Only a SMC can Recover a SW/Gun possessed by a friendly broken unit, and does this by rolling a Recovery Final dr of < 6 (Δ) in its RPh/MPh without need of MF expenditure."
Note, however, that the leader would have to forfeit any attempt to rally the broken unit (only one action is allowed per RPh).
 

Vinnie

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2 a.
The squad can join in firing with the HMG but if they do so, it is considered subsequent first fire and sustained fire for the HMG so you would probably not want to do this.

A DEFENDING Infantry unit already marked with a First Fire counter may Defensive First Fire again with its own FP and/or MG during that MPh provided that the target is not at a range greater than that to the closest enemy unit in LOS, nor outside the firer's normal range. A unit thus using Subsequent First Fire has its FP halved. If using a MG during Subsequent First Fire, the B# is lowered by 2
 

Jwil2020

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A leader may try to recover a SW from a broken unit - in the full rulebook at least - but must roll for recovery.
This situation comes up a lot in SK. As you point out, it is permitted in ASL. However, in SK, the SW is tied up with the fate of that broken unit. In SK, you can only transfer or take possession of SW from good order units. So, until that broken unit either gets rallied, eliminated, or forced to drop it as a result of insufficient PP during a rout it will maintain a death grip on that MG, and even a five-star general will not be able to talk them out of it.
 

robertdelwood

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Of the case: A full squad possesses a HMG.

The squad FFs. It is marked with FF counter. The HMG has not yet fired.
The HMG now wants to fire.
a) I've interpreted this to be FF for the HMG because the squad isn't also firing together.
b) Vinnie, your citation by definition means it is SFF for the HMG.
 

Jwil2020

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But if it doesn't actually leave the location, then no one can ever wrest possession from a broken unit?
Correct. See above post.
The weapon must be "left unattended" to be recovered by another unit. (4.0) So, if the broken squad did not rout away that HMG is still in its possession.
 

Jwil2020

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a) I've interpreted this to be FF for the HMG because the squad isn't also firing together.
Correct. Since the HMG has not fired yet, it would be considered firing D1F. Which means it is not under any of the restrictions of SFF or FPF.
 

Vinnie

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Correct. Since the HMG has not fired yet, it would be considered firing D1F. Which means it is not under any of the restrictions of SFF or FPF.
If it fires separately, this is true, but if it fires in conjunction with the squad, it us sustained fire.
 

Jwil2020

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If it fires separately, this is true, but if it fires in conjunction with the squad, it us sustained fire.
Agree. If the squad (already marked First Fire) joins the HMG (even though it is not marked FF), both fire under the restrictions of Subsequent First Fire (I don't think SK uses the term "sustained fire", but restrictions/penalties are the same) and both will be marked Final Fire with no chance for ROF for the HMG.

I believe this link will bring up a First Fire Flow Chart that, although designed for ASL, might be helpful to the OP. (Or might add to the confusion o_O)
https://boardgamegeek.com/file/download_redirect/e9f9c97faf4aacb8d083261023ebeb83a8916db7d3e9d03d/First+fire+flowchart+1.2.pdf
 
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