Red Factories, Guns & Breaches

[JimWhite]

Can a Gun be Manhandled through a Factory Interior Wall Breach?

 

[Doug Leslie]

5.331 EFFECTS: Once a Factory Interior Wall hexside has been Breached, that hexside's effects remain unchanged except as follows:

•units may move/rout/advance/Withdraw-from-Melee (including to a Fortified Building Location), and same-level (only) LOS may be drawn, across it as if it were a wall (exclusive of its vertices, whose status remains unchanged by the Breach);

•such a Breached hexside may be crossed only if the total US# of all units that have crossed it during the current phase, plus the US# of the unit currently wishing to cross it, is ≤ 5.

The US of a gun and its manning crew is 4 (5 if the gun is a large target). The gun can be manhandled through the breach as if it were a wall provided that it is not being pushed by additional infantry that take it over the US# of 5 threshold.

1.6 UNIT SIZE NUMBER (US#): ... Personnel units have a US# equal to the number of silhouettes on their counter (SMC: 1; Crew/HS: 2; Squad: 3). Horses and all other ⅝" counters have a US# of 4 as do their Riders or attendant crews [EXC: Any vehicle or Gun classified as large or very large (red ★, AF, or M#) has a US# of 5].

 

[Larry]

Well-parsed.

 

[Russ Isaia]

"The US of a gun and its manning crew is 4 (5 if the gun is a large target)." Do you have cite for the notion that the crew unit size of 2 disappears when it is manning a Gun?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

The Breach rule only mentions the Unit Size of the unit crossing the breach. A Gun is not a unit, so I am not sure the size of the Gun matters.

 

[Doug Leslie]

The Breach rule only mentions the Unit Size of the unit crossing the breach. A Gun is not a unit, so I am not sure the size of the Gun matters.

The wording of A1.6 includes the crew as part of the US# of the gun.

"...all other ⅝" counters have a US# of 4 as do their Riders or attendant crews. [EXC: Any vehicle or Gun classified as large or very large (red ★, AF, or M#) has a US# of 5]. "

This seems to me to mean that the crew of any gun that crosses a breached interior factory wall while manhandling it will be counted as US# of 4/5 depending on the gun's target size. The only significance from a practical point of view is that a SMC can cross the breach in addition to a normal target size gun but but not if it is a large target. It is less clear what US# to attribute to a gun if a squad is pushing it. Logic would suggest that it be increased by one for the purposes of O5.331 but this doesn't seem to be spelt out.

 

[Doug Leslie]

"The US of a gun and its manning crew is 4 (5 if the gun is a large target)." Do you have cite for the notion that the crew unit size of 2 disappears when it is manning a Gun?

As noted above, the wording is in A1.6.

 

[Russ Isaia]

As noted above, the wording is in A1.6.

To me, "as do" does not mean the Riders or attendant crews have no unit size. It means the Riders or attendant crews have a US# of 4, "as do" whatever is transporting them or whatever Gun they serve as the crew for. If the rules included them at no extra cost to the US# then I would have expected something like "(which US# includes any PRC or attendant Gun crew)."

 

[Eagle4ty]

To me, "as do" does not mean the Riders or attendant crews have no unit size. It means the Riders or attendant crews have a US# of 4, "as do" whatever is transporting them or whatever Gun they serve as the crew for. If the rules included them at no extra cost to the US# then I would have expected something like "(which US# includes any PRC or attendant Gun crew)."

Correct. The Crews also includes the ammo they are carrying thus the increased US# attributed to the crew. The US# of the Gun certainly doesn't include the US# of the crew as the statement in A1.6 makes it abundantly clear that the gun crew also has a US# of 4 in addition to the US# of the gun or else why would there be a need to add the "EXC" for large guns. If the Gun and crew combined were equal the US# of the Gun only, the rule would simply have to state the US# of a Gun & crew is equal to the US# of the gun and be done with any further verbiage.

 

[Doug Leslie]

The point here is to consider the circumstances where US# matters. Three of these are listed in A1.6:

1.6 UNIT SIZE NUMBER (US#): Each unit has an inherent Unit Size Number which approximates its relative size in terms of bulk, number of men, and/or difficulty to conceal which is used for certain rules (Concealment, 12.12; Guarding Prisoners, 20.5; Set DC, 23.7).

The US# of a crew manning a gun is irrelevant to guarding prisoners. Guns can't be taken prisoner, so the US# of a captured crew will be 2. Similarly, it isn't relevant to passing a TC to detonate a set DC where, again, a crew's US# would be 2 as normal. The most common situation where US# matters to a gun crew/riders is for concealment gain (case K on the concealment table). Where a dr of<= 5 is required to gain concealment, the dr is modified by the US# of whatever is making the attempt. For concealment gain purposes, the US# of a normal target size gun or horse counter will be 4 regardless of the fact that a crew is manning the gun or a MMC is riding the horses. Concealment will therefore be gained on a dr of 1. If the US# of manning crew/riders were added to the US# of the gun/horse counter, concealment gain would become almost impossible.

There is specific mention in A1.6 of pushing guns through a breach in a factory wall. I would argue that the fact that three situations are specifically listed should be read as being without prejudice to the generality that, in certain situations, the US# of a gun will include that of its attendant crew.

The wording of O5.331 is as follows:

"...such a Breached hexside may be crossed only if the total US# of all units that have crossed it during the current phase, plus the US# of the unit currently wishing to cross it, is ≤ 5."

As Klas has pointed out, the rule refers to the US# of "units" crossing the breach and a gun is not a unit. You could use this to argue that a gun has no effect on the number of units that can cross the breach, in which event it would be just as easy for a crew, squad and gun (assuming it passes its manhandling DR) to cross as it would for a squad and a crew. That doesn't make sense to me. The US# of a crew pushing a gun is clearly greater than a crew on its own. The point of restricting the number of units that can go through the breach in one MPh is that they are essentially crawling through a small hole which makes faster movement impossible. Maneuvering a gun through such a gap is going to take time and I don't see how this could not affect the number of other units that can cross within that time frame.

If the US# of the attending crew (same as for the gun per A1.6) is used to calculate the unit cost, this has the effect of making the gun count towards the total number of units that can cross the breach. I think that this reflects reality and is also consistent with A1.6.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I am pretty sure that the US# of a Gun - per A1.6 - includes any attending crew. Otherwise, as noted in the post above, concealment gain for a Gun would be (all but) impossible.

Whether it affects/impacts O5.331 is another matter - I can see it either way.

 

[Eagle4ty]

I don't see how once can misconstrue the the statement in A1.6 "...all other ⅝" counters have a US# of 4 as do their Riders or attendant crews." to mean anything more or less than what it actually says: "That Riders or attendant gun crews have a US# of 4! Yes crews by themselves have a US# of two but A1.6 specifically, and absolutely clearly, states as an attendant crew has a US# of 4. That this makes the possibility of manhadling a Gun into a building through a breach impossible is truly immaterial; it is simply not allowed or not possible.

 

[Doug Leslie]

I don't see how once can misconstrue the the statement in A1.6 "...all other ⅝" counters have a US# of 4 as do their Riders or attendant crews." to mean anything more or less than what it actually says: "That Riders or attendant gun crews have a US# of 4! Yes crews by themselves have a US# of two but A1.6 specifically, and absolutely clearly, states as an attendant crew has a US# of 4. That this makes the possibility of manhadling a Gun into a building through a breach impossible is truly immaterial; it is simply not allowed or not possible.

The interpretation that you suggest doesn't make it impossible to manhandle a gun through a breach, since the gun is not a unit and only the crew's US# would count towards the "5" total.
What is the US# of a gun and crew for concealment dr purposes? Is it 8 or do they roll separately?

 

[Russ Isaia]

A few points on Doug Leslie's arguments:

1. That A1.6 mentions specifically certain rules is hardly surprising, and not at all informative, when the (unmentioned) rule is in an HASL.

2. Concealment is not problematic how ever you interpret A1.6. The 12.122 DRM is explicit: "+X [where] X is the US# of the unit or its possessed Gun/Horse." The modifier is therefore either 4 or 5 when a unit possesses a Gun/Horse, because the concealment rule says the crew (manning Infantry) does not count. Or have you been playing it differently?

3. The best argument you have is Klas' observation: guns are not units. But that creates two problems of interpretation. First, the HASL rules call for adding US#(s) and guns have a US#(s). Seems "wrong" to drop a US#. Second, that observation omits from the HASL rule calc the US# of the gun, not of the attendant crew. That is unlike concealment. And allows a large gun to be pushed through a breach on the same DR as a small gun, also unlike concealment. Remember, it is only foolish consistency that is the hobglobin of small minds!

On balance, I think the "right" answer is 4 or 5 (like concealment, using the US# of the gun and ignoring the crew), but there is no way to get there on the words of the HASL rules. So, either 2 (if I want to do it) or 8/9 (if my opponent wants to do it). Until authority overrules me.

 

[Doug Leslie]

A few points on Doug Leslie's arguments:

1. That A1.6 mentions specifically certain rules is hardly surprising, and not at all informative, when the (unmentioned) rule is in an HASL.

2. Concealment is not problematic how ever you interpret A1.6. The 12.122 DRM is explicit: "+X [where] X is the US# of the unit or its possessed Gun/Horse." The modifier is therefore either 4 or 5 when a unit possesses a Gun/Horse, because the concealment rule says the crew (manning Infantry) does not count. Or have you been playing it differently?

3. The best argument you have is Klas' observation: guns are not units. But that creates two problems of interpretation. First, the HASL rules call for adding US#(s) and guns have a US#(s). Seems "wrong" to drop a US#. Second, that observation omits from the HASL rule calc the US# of the gun, not of the attendant crew. That is unlike concealment. And allows a large gun to be pushed through a breach on the same DR as a small gun, also unlike concealment. Remember, it is only foolish consistency that is the hobglobin of small minds!

On balance, I think the "right" answer is 4 or 5 (like concealment, using the US# of the gun and ignoring the crew), but there is no way to get there on the words of the HASL rules. So, either 2 (if I want to do it) or 8/9 (if my opponent wants to do it). Until authority overrules me.

It certainly could do with clarification but I think that you can get to the "right" answer by reading the HASL rule in conjunction with A1.6. The HASL rule specifically refers to adding the US# of "units", so that would exclude the possibility of adding gun US# to that of the crew. For what it is worth, I suspect that if the intent of the rule was to exclude the possibility of pushing a gun through a breached hexside, it would say so.
With regard to the large gun/smaller gun issue, the DR needed to push it through the breach will be lower for a large gun since its M# will be lower. US# is not a factor in this regard.
To me, it is a choice between disregarding the US# of the gun altogether and simply using the US# of the attendant crew/squad pushing it when calculating the total US# of units crossing the breach in that MPh or applying A1.6 and using the US# of the gun without adding anything for the infantry crewing it ie 2/3 or 4/5. I think that the latter makes more sense but suffers from the problem that it is effectively saying that a squad pushing has the same effect in calculating total US# that can cross the breach as a crew does. I can live with that slight inconsistency more easily however than saying that there is no difference in total US# calculation between a lone crew and a crew pushing a gun.

 

[Eagle4ty]

I certainly agree that a clarification would certainly be in order as like Klas, I can see arguments both ways. However, reading the rule it seems as if both the US# of the Gun and the adjusted US# of the attendant crew is taken into account otherwise why the addition of the EXC mentioning the US# of a large target sized gun?

 

[Russ Isaia]

. . .. For what it is worth, I suspect that if the intent of the rule was to exclude the possibility of pushing a gun through a breached hexside, it would say so.

Likewise, for what it is worth, I doubt the intent was to address Guns at all -- just "how many Infantry can I shove through a Breach in a Factory Interior Wall in one phase?" The prohibition against shoving through Guns (if that is there) is likely an unanticipated and possibly unwanted consequence.

But yeah, clarification is needed because a close reading of the rules ain't doing it for me at least. Here's my Q&A:

A1.6, O5.331, R5.331

A Breach exists in an Interior Factory Wall in a game or scenario to which the above Red Barricades and Red Factories rules apply.

Q. What is the US# of the unit currently wishing to cross the breached hexside in the case of a crew attempting to push a Gun which is not a large target through the Breach?

a. 2, the US# of the crew under A1.6,
b. 4, the US# of the crew under A1.6, but as the "attendant crew" of a Gun (the quoted phrase, from A1.6), or
c. 8, the US# of an attendant crew and the 5/8" counter representing the Gun?

Discussion of this question is at http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/red-factories-guns-breaches.166576/#post-2079086.

Good enough? Anyone want to ask about riding horses through a breach as well?

 

[Doug Leslie]

Likewise, for what it is worth, I doubt the intent was to address Guns at all -- just "how many Infantry can I shove through a Breach in a Factory Interior Wall in one phase?" The prohibition against shoving through Guns (if that is there) is likely an unanticipated and possibly unwanted consequence.

But yeah, clarification is needed because a close reading of the rules ain't doing it for me at least. Here's my Q&A:

A1.6, O5.331, R5.331

A Breach exists in an Interior Factory Wall in a game or scenario to which the above Red Barricades and Red Factories rules apply.

Q. What is the US# of the unit currently wishing to cross the breached hexside in the case of a crew attempting to push a Gun which is not a large target through the Breach?

a. 2, the US# of the crew under A1.6,
b. 4, the US# of the crew under A1.6, but as the "attendant crew" of a Gun (the quoted phrase, from A1.6), or
c. 8, the US# of an attendant crew and the 5/8" counter representing the Gun?

Discussion of this question is at http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/red-factories-guns-breaches.166576/#post-2079086.

Good enough? Anyone want to ask about riding horses through a breach as well?

That is an image to conjure with!

I doubt that the answer can be "c" but no harm including it. You could even suggest a fourth option of "6", the US# of the crew plus the US# of the gun" but the end result would be the same as "c"- the gun isn't going through the breach.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

A question (without any alternatives) and a link to this thread would also suffice.

 

[Russ Isaia]

Here we are (copy already in the Perry Sez Collection):

A1.6, O5.331, R5.331

Q. A Breach exists in an Interior Factory Wall in a game or scenario to which the above Red Barricades and Red Factories rules apply. What is the US# of the unit currently wishing to cross the breached hexside in the case of a crew attempting to push a Gun which is not a large target through the Breach? If the answer is four, is that the US# of the crew while manning a Gun, or the US# of the Gun?

Discussion of this question is at http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/red-factories-guns-breaches.166576/#post-2079086.

A.

"4.
....Perry
MMP"