New panzer campaigns?

Lohengrin

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Obviously the trench warfare operations would not fare well in the system, but Gary's suggestions were all operations that involved a good deal of maneuver. I'd agree with him that those situations in particular could be done very well at this scale and with this engine. In fact, I'd say that there might not be a better scale to use for those situations than this one.

Of course, it's a matter of what one's taste is for WWI combat. I've played Bn/Rgt board games like "The Cossacks are Coming" (E. Prussia 1914) and that scale appeals to me very much.
 

westkent5097

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Gary has obviously been reading my mind.

About a month ago I started exploring the possibilities of modding a 1914 BEF game using France 40 as a base (need more map south and east really). Haven't got very far into it because of my work on the "uber-Danube '85" scenario I'm creating.

1914 certainly has some possibilities at this scale although it could turn into a slow moving click-fest with only foot and horse power to contend with- depending how much you want to model railways and the emergency use of buses.
 

FastPhil

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Burma would make an interesting title I believe. Mandalay, Imphal and Kohima. Lots of new units. West Africans, Chinese, Chindits, American, British, Japanese etc. :)
 

Paulinski

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I think WWI Campaigns would be a big hit. Yes its new series but it offerers a lot of possibilities. :)

Of course continuation of Panzer/Modern Campaigns is a must.
 

Lord_Valentai

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The Eastern Front or the early/late western front would be the only times you could really do.

I mean, no one really wants to do something so depressing as the first day on the Somme.
 
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Well, you know they could do a one disk set on the

First
Second
Third
Fourth
Fifth
Sixth
Seventh
Eighth
Ninth
Tenth and
Eleventh Battle of the Isonzo

:nuts:
 

trauth116

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Fezziwig (I think) brought up an excellent point about command control .. and I think no matter what the scale- that should be an important factor.

Once battle commenced then there was pretty much no way to actually control things apart from pouring more and more into it.

Anyway, imo scale choice would probably make all of the difference.
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Sure, Burma might be good- Malaya might also be ok, New Guinea might work too,as well as the Philippines; - I guess the consideration though is that would a single system that could also be used for island battles be preferable? - I am meaning is continuity important? (If it matters it is not a deal breaker for me, but I suppose it is a nice touch).
 
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Well... in terms of C &C

My thought is this.

Create No Mans Land hexes (Kind of like Rubbled cities in some ways).

Units that are either *in* or *beyond* a NML hex from their friendly arty cannot sight for arty (defensive or offensive) until an engineer unit enters that hex and "restores communications"

Likewise, a unit that has moved in its own phase cannot sight for arty... only those units exposed at turn start can be targeted, even then subject to the above restrictions.
 

trauth116

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I want to touch on a slightly different area- but go again for a scale argument. This is something that I thought about later, in that there are a few ways to approach things.

Another way that could work for trench warfare could be to use a "decision tree" approach like is used in EAW, NC, and CWC series' instead of the straight here's the map, you are here- you want to get there type approach that is more alongthe lines of PzC/MC.

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Spotting is an interesting issue from the design standpoint; one would have to read a fair bit about World War I to get a grasp on things- Gary, your ideas sound interesting. There is a definite issue of friendly fire that might need to be addressed ( as well as that during the war there seems to have been a distinct evolution of artillery usage, by this I am referring to ideas developed during the war like the creeping barrage, and the idea of massed firepower, etc.) I suppose you could during certain periods of the war assign given HQ's so many recon flights (or balloon placement) for the sole purpose of scouting opposite trench lines. Anyway ... I just wanted to throw in the tree/flow chart idea as a possibility as well.
 
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The issue with arty spotting in WW1 was that the communications equipment simply wasn't up to the task. There were no man portable radios. The only radios were large, bulky units assigned to mid and higher range HQ's. Field Telephones worked, but they were also vunerable to having their wires blasted apart. Observation balloons and other elevated positions were certainly usable, and would have some form of telephone connection. Otherwise, you were forced to use runners.

The downside of all of that is it gave very little flexibility in calling down arty. You could do it off of a preplan for offensives. Likewise, the defenders in the trenchline could call down preregistered fire much of the time. That was about it.

What would often happen, is that if the attackers managed to take the first trench line, and even the second, they would be cut off from their own artillery. No wires across No Man's Land, no radio, so you're left with runners, which is far too slow (and unreliable) for effective artillery support. This is one of the reasons the standard german tactic was to let the attackers hit the first (and even second) trench line, and then counterattack and restore the position, when the Allies didn't have the ability to bring in their own defensive fire.


All of the above is of course, in reference to Indirect fire pieces. All sides still had a fair number of DF pieces (the French 75 generally, though it had sort of been modified for IF, would be a good example of this). In game terms, DF pieces are simple. Give them a 1-2 hex range, and they need LOS.

This is one of the reasons tanks were so useful initially. They became that heavy fire support on the other side of NML.

I'd agree balloon placement should give extra visibility. Aircraft flights, not so much so. Again, no radio, so the ability to bring down a barrage on time and target was iffy.
 
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'Ol Fezziwig

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Something that might be-well, should be, interesting would be pre-plotted fires. Many of the larger barrages (/artillery pieces) were strictly regimented to a schedule, yes, which was often grossly optimistic, which would lead to issues if the infantry assaults lagged behind them.

In fact, it might be almost an Artillery Campaigns system, given the importance of that arm to the waging of the Great War. If the many tentacles of artillery usage and command and control nightmares can be tamed, WWI could be likewise tamed.
 

trauth116

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I think it is debatable as to how useful tanks were initially - from everything I have read ( accounts of the Somme) - that this was exactly the opposite of the case- that tanks were not really that useful initially- and in fact in the case of the Australian Army in France -they hated the things at first. From what I recall (even in the game notes of a board game system - Der Weltkrieg)- that they were extremely unreliable at first- and prone to break downs as well as used in trickles (a lot like the indirect artillery barrage learning curve really).

I think it is arguable that the first really big impact tanks made was at Cambrai -which was Nov 1917 (although they'd been used first in 1916 ). I don't mean to quibble, aside from to me that seems a pretty important point about tanks during World War I.

WRG: Artillery- sometimes the infantry lagged behind- and then other times they not only caught up to a rolling barage but they advanced into it. (Which was what I was referring to by the friendly fire bit in my last post).

WRG: Balloons/Air recon- like other games with a FOW aspect- you could set a parameter for what they actually report. Or maybe devise some sort of modifier to a given ground units' reporting accuracy or something similar, based upon an abstract representation of what side has air superiority.


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Getting back to PzC, I was flipping through an Osprey book on the Rhineland campaign ('45) -and that would seem to be doable in the PzC scale- I guess in theory a map from Switzerland to about where the Rhine enters Holland would be on the large side for the series- and I suppose you could leave the French Army sector off if only for the reason that that sector seemed static during the time frame. Some of the areas would have been mapped in France '40 and Bulge '44 already. Well anyway, I'd guess that gets covered eventually.
 
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Xaver

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Mobile in WWI could be Meggido, Romania or the first month of the war..... Meggido has a great look and can add another actions of the zone.
 

'Ol Fezziwig

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Want a mobile WWI battle? Lawrence of Arabia (LOA)
Sure mobility's fine when it applies, but WWI was as much about the desperate attempts at a breakthrough to recreate the fluid phase; it never dawned on the brass that even had the breakthroughs occurred, the fluidity they craved was still out of reach for their Jurassic-era communications system.

If one could recreate thet "carrot and stick" reach in a WWI game, they'd have met the goal, IMHuO.
 

jaw

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What's with all this discussion of World War I? I can think of at least a dozen different "Panzer campaigns" that haven't yet been covered, the least of which is still more interesting than any WWI battle. To name just major campaigns that have yet to be covered:

Tunisia (which hopefully is the next game)
Leningrad (several major battles were fought around Leningrad from 1941 till 1944)
Crimea (like Leningrad a scene of action from '41 to '44)
Lorraine (Patton's battles for Nancy and Metz)

These are just the "biggies"; there are lots of other battles that could be tied together into one game the way Salerno, Crete and Anzio were. IMHO, I think we're YEARS from talking about what comes after Panzer Campaigns!

Jim Wirth
 

eds

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WW1 obviously isn't Jims favourite, but I think the Tannenberg Campaign/Battle offers some good scope for the Tiller treatment.
It's got some manouvre in it and it's outcome was fairly decisive to the overall outcome of the Eastern front.
 

Mike Cox

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Late to the discussion as always but I have a dime or so worth of opinions to toss about.

I agree with Jim's wish list of WW2 Campaigns above. I would think Anvil/Dragoon could be combined with Lorraine.

I just don't see the pacific having enough movement at this scale to be really gameable. Even stuff like Burma or a siege like Singapore. Leyte? Maybe, I don't really know. Big and open but no supply and bogged down in the jungle. Of course if someone dropped a detailed oob in Glenn's lap and provided Blackie with an appropriate topo....

For Modern Campaigns, I would be interested in a theoretical Indo-Pakistani conflict also set in 85 to tie in with the existing story line. You could also throw in a couple of smaller historic battles. (Largest post ww2 tank battle was between these to in the 60's.)

I would really like to see a WW1 PzCampaign spinoff. I think the early 1914 battles (maybe some others) could shoehorn in without problem to the existing engine. I mucked around with a Mons scenario on my last computer based on France 40, but it is no longer with us (the computer or the scenario). I am simply not good enough with the PzCampaigns editors to pull it off. However the BEF battles cover a lot of territory in those opening months. Plenty of give and take. It would also leave room for people to do small battle scenarios for the Somme and the like. (But I would not think that should be the focus of the pros.) Tannenberg as previously mentioned is up there. I think there were some new C&C rules introduced and those certainly could be stiffened.

If a WW1 series was developed, I would be interested. Maybe 500m per hex? Could prove interesting.
 
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