May friendly dummy stacks move through friendly HIP fortifications

[RollTide]

Europe day scenario. The Defender has HIP fortifications. May the Defenders own dummy stacks, out of all enemy LOS, move through the HIP fortifications (Wire, mines, ect) unimpeded, paying only COT and no minefield attacks by the HIP mines?

Thanks.

 

[Eagle4ty]

Europe day scenario. The Defender has HIP fortifications. May the Defenders own dummy stacks, out of all enemy LOS, move through the HIP fortifications (Wire, mines, ect) unimpeded, paying only COT and no minefield attacks by the HIP mines?

Thanks.

A12.33..A unit entering/exiting a hidden Fortification (including Wire but not Panjis)J7 pays no MF/MP to do so, provided that Fortification remains hidden including Infantry/Cavalry (only) crossing a roadblock hexside. So yes for wire, entrenchments, etc.. However, this does not release one from the IFT/A-T minefield attack (though I wish it would allow for some sort of passage point-probably beyond the scope of ASL applicability).

 

[klasmalmstrom]

IIRC, a dummy stack entering/exiting a "friendly" minefield is eliminated.

 

[RollTide]

Thanks Eagle, I did not catch 12.33.
--
Did not see in the rules about an auto elim of a dummy stack entering a minefield, just that an AP minefield will attack any entering 'unit'.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Did not see in the rules about an auto elim of a dummy stack entering a minefield, just that an AP minefield will attack any entering 'unit'.

A12.11:
"Before announcing any mine attacks exposed by the movement of a stack topped by a “?”, the DEFENDER may force the ATTACKER to momentarily reveal a non-Dummy unit in that stack to show that an actual force exists there. If he cannot, or if the stack is friendly to the DEFENDER, the Dummy stack is removed. "

 

[Stewart]

Thanks Eagle, I did not catch 12.33.
--
Did not see in the rules about an auto elim of a dummy stack entering a minefield, just that an AP minefield will attack any entering 'unit'.

To prevent sleazing more than likely. Personally, I think its a perfect way for misdirection.

 

[RollTide]

There ya go.. Thanks klasmalmstrom.

 

[Vinnie]

I can attest to a friendly minefiled eliminating a dummy stack. I did it during a CG.....twice.

 

[Ed Donoghue]

IDK, I would think that a friendly unit, including a dummy stack, would have at least a chance of crossing a minefield safely. Like 50% or 67%, a dr (maybe with mods for elite, lax, night, etc)?

 

[Eagle4ty]

IDK, I would think that a friendly unit, including a dummy stack, would have at least a chance of crossing a minefield safely. Like 50% or 67%, a dr (maybe with mods for elite, lax, night, etc)?

Passage of lines trough a minefield is a tricky affair. Normally a unit conducting the passage has to coordinate with the owning unit (the unit on the spot with a diagram of the minefield layout on the 'friendly' side of the minefield) to obtain a safe passage point(s). The owning unit then usually provides a guide to lead the passing unit thru the minefield and coordinates with the passing unit for a battle-hand-off point on the far side of the minefield (a point where the passing unit assumes its own security once it has traversed the minefield), signals and projected points of reentry should the passing unit plan to reenter friendly lines through the minefield. A passing unit would almost never be presented with a plan of the minefield to be taken with them forward and would almost never attempt an uncoordinated passage except in dire circumstances. To accurately portray this in ASL is perhaps a too involved process.

However, having said as much, in my close group of ASL buddies when playing RB especially, we allow friendly dummy stacks to traverse a friendly minefield without attack to enhance the FOW aspect of the game and because of implicit trust among us (but NEVER with your wallet). This is only a HR and in no way would we expect another to accept this approach except if he wished to join us in our game and then only if he acquiesced to the proposed HR.

 

[ScottRomanowski]

There was Q&A in the '97 Annual supporting Klas:
"A12.11 & B28.41 May dummies enter/exit friendly hidden minefields without revealing either themselves or the minefield?
A. No. [An97]"

Those sentences in A12.11 are worded oddly. Before announcing a mine attack, the DEFENDER may force the ATTACKER to temporarily reveal a real unit. "If he cannot, or if the stack is friendly to the DEFENDER, the Dummy stack is removed." But the stack the ATTACKER is moving CANNOT be "friendly to the Defender". The "or if" clause was added in 2e.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Those sentences in A12.11 are worded oddly. Before announcing a mine attack, the DEFENDER may force the ATTACKER to temporarily reveal a real unit. "If he cannot, or if the stack is friendly to the DEFENDER, the Dummy stack is removed." But the stack the ATTACKER is moving CANNOT be "friendly to the Defender". The "or if" clause was added in 2e.

It is - I think "to the DEFENDER" needs to be read as "to the owner of the minefield"..

 

[ScottRomanowski]

Would it be simpler to perhaps to have
"If he cannot the Dummy stack is removed, as is a Dummy stack entering a friendly minefield."

 

[Old Noob]

Minefields are a equal opportunity destroyer.

 

[Stewart]

IDK, I would think that a friendly unit, including a dummy stack, would have at least a chance of crossing a minefield safely. Like 50% or 67%, a dr (maybe with mods for elite, lax, night, etc)?

You have to remember, someone is always NOT paying attention to the signs and signals

 

[Ed Donoghue]

You have to remember, someone is always NOT paying attention to the signs and signals

Absolutely correct, and the reason I suggested not a freebee but only an even or 2/3 chance of safe passage, with dr modifications based on unit skill and/or visibility levels

 

[Ed Donoghue]

Passage of lines trough a minefield is a tricky affair. Normally a unit conducting the passage has to coordinate with the owning unit (the unit on the spot with a diagram of the minefield layout on the 'friendly' side of the minefield) to obtain a safe passage point(s). The owning unit then usually provides a guide to lead the passing unit thru the minefield and coordinates with the passing unit for a battle-hand-off point on the far side of the minefield (a point where the passing unit assumes its own security once it has traversed the minefield), signals and projected points of reentry should the passing unit plan to reenter friendly lines through the minefield. A passing unit would almost never be presented with a plan of the minefield to be taken with them forward and would almost never attempt an uncoordinated passage except in dire circumstances. To accurately portray this in ASL is perhaps a too involved process.

However, having said as much, in my close group of ASL buddies when playing RB especially, we allow friendly dummy stacks to traverse a friendly minefield without attack to enhance the FOW aspect of the game and because of implicit trust among us (but NEVER with your wallet). This is only a HR and in no way would we expect another to accept this approach except if he wished to join us in our game and then only if he acquiesced to the proposed HR.

Thanks for fast response & the great answer. I think from now on when the scenario involves mines, my opponent & I will discuss the FOW aspect & HR at some level.

 

[Vinnie]

Konisberg:the bears revenge allows germannunjts to traverse minefields out of line of sight.
Minefield: A Concealed German infantry unit using Non-Assault Movement may enter/exit a Minefield Location without coming under a Minefield attack, provided the Minefield Location is > 7 hexes from and out of LOS of all non-aerial Russian units. If the German unit is found to be in LOS, Concealment is lost, the Minefield is placed on map as Known Minefield (B28.45), and the German unit must exit the Minefield location normally (B28.41).

This was done to allow repositioning in the backfield without giving away minefield positions (why does he take the long way round when no one can see him there?)

 

[von Marwitz]

Konisberg:the bears revenge allows germannunjts to traverse minefields out of line of sight.
Minefield: A Concealed German infantry unit using Non-Assault Movement may enter/exit a Minefield Location without coming under a Minefield attack, provided the Minefield Location is > 7 hexes from and out of LOS of all non-aerial Russian units. If the German unit is found to be in LOS, Concealment is lost, the Minefield is placed on map as Known Minefield (B28.45), and the German unit must exit the Minefield location normally (B28.41).

This was done to allow repositioning in the backfield without giving away minefield positions (why does he take the long way round when no one can see him there?)

That's an interesting rule.

I don't like the approach, though, that the 'friendly' unit is attacked by its own minefield in case of LOS, because I find it should be assumed that it knows the way through its own minefield while redeploying in the backfield.

Maybe it could have been treated like this instead:
If the German unit is found to be in LOS, Concealment is lost, the Minefield is placed on map as Known Minefield (B28.45), and the German unit can exit the Minefield Location normally (B28.41) without being attacked. A Trailbreak is placed between the hexsides by which the German unit has entered/exited the Minefield.

This would reflect that the German unit would inadvertedly give away the path through the Minefield while under enemy observation while taking away the arbitrary attack for exiting a friendly minefield based on existing LOS. I.e. why should the Germans all of a sudden 'forget' the path through the minefield merely for the fact of being seen?

von Marwitz

 

[Vinnie]

It was a risk/reward calculation. It discourages you trying to sneak forwards in the front line.
Given the dense terrain in Konisberg, you've pretty much got to be in the front line to be seen.
Additionally, it was brought in so you cpould have successive "belts" of defences without tipping your hand. The German player needs this as his forces are so very brittle and the Soviet, once he breaks through can rampage easily.