Location of small arms fire against unarmored aspects

afgur

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Hello all

Small arms shoots at AFV with unarmored rear turret. If I remember correctly location of hit is determined by IFT DR, but I can't find where it is stated in the rulebook. Can I get some help?

Thanks
Alan
 

PresterJohn

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It will just attack the crew as per D5.311. You don't get to destroy the vehicle.
 

Robin Reeve

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It will just attack the crew as per D5.311. You don't get to destroy the vehicle.
I am not sure.
D5.311 only treats how the crew is affected, and says nothing of the vehicle itself.
Couldn't an IFT attack through the unarmored aspect of a vehicle destroy it as pe A7.308 (C3.9 seems to imply that a hit affecting an unarmored aspect is treated as vs an unarmored vehicle) ?
C7.346 says, for a DC : "The DC Position DR also serves as the hit location DR (3.9). If placed through an unarmored target facing, make an IFT (rather than a To Kill) DR vs the vehicle as if it were unarmored (A7.308)."
I have looked up the most recent Q&A but found nothing...
 
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PresterJohn

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My limited reading is that the IFT attack by the squad on an AFV (partially armoured) is only able to affect the crew. On the other hand an MG attack on the TH table would be resolved differently, with TH/TK and collateral damage (I think).
 

Robin Reeve

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I sent thee following questions to MMP :

When firing on the IFT through an unarmored Aspect of an AFV, does A7.308 apply (i.e. can the AFV be destroyed as an unarmored vehicle) ?

Would it be the same if only the upper Aspect is unarmored ?
 

Stewart

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IF the full back of the AFV were unarmored, it would surely be attacked on the STAR column with the effects on the infantry as well.

Where does it state otherwise? It's a standard Unarmored attack.
 

PresterJohn

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My guess is that D1.2 is the eod. If a vehicle has any armour it is an AFV. An AFV cannot be harmed by Small Arms on the IFT.
 

afgur

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1.2 ARMOR STATUS: Every vehicle falls into at least one of four Ar-
mor status categories. If a vehicle has any armor (1.6) it is referred to as
an Armored Fighting Vehicle (AFV) and is subject to many special rules.
The main advantage of an AFV is that it cannot be harmed by Small Arms
on the IFT (although its PRC may be Vulnerable to such fire in certain sit-
uations) unless struck through an unarmored Target Facing/Aspect.

Robin, that makes sense. Small arms attacks the whole hex so they are unarmored.

PresterJohn D1.2 above seems to allow harm by small arms through an unarmored Target Facing/Aspect.

Alan
 

Robin Reeve

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Good point, Alan.
Let's see what MMP will answer.
 

Jazz

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My guess is that D1.2 is the eod. If a vehicle has any armour it is an AFV. An AFV cannot be harmed by Small Arms on the IFT.
Small arms fire at an unarmored facing can destroy a vehicle based on the * column of the firepower. D1.2 as quoted above.

Guesses do not supersede the rulz as published.
 

Bill Kohler

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I agree that a partially armored vehicle, if struck in an unarmored facing by Small Arms fire (even if only the turret is unarmored), can be destroyed by that fire. This is definitively answered in A9.51:

A9.51 vs VEHICLE: Spraying Fire (like all forms of Area Fire) has no effect vs an AFV, but can affect Vulnerable PRC and unarmored/partially armored vehicles in the same manner as Small Arms Fire.

A related question, though, is whether a partially armored vehicle, if in a Location attacked by the Infantry Target Type, can be destroyed, even if presenting an unarmored facing toward the fire.

C3.32 INFANTRY TARGET TYPE: The Infantry Target Type can be selected only when firing HE [EXC: AP or HEAT vs an unarmored target (8.31, 11.52)] and only against an unarmored target. All AFV (but not their Vulnerable PRC) in the target Location are immune to damage from a hit on this table, other than that resulting from damage to terrain (B24.121). All other in-LOS enemy units in that Location can be hit [EXC: those immune as per 3.4], and all that are hit are then attacked on the IFT with a single Effects DR; see 3.4.

C3.41 The Infantry, as well as the Area, Target Type may be used to attack a[n] unarmored-target/unmanned-Gun/building/bridge/vehicle, and may also attack a hex devoid of such. [EXC: The Infantry Target Type (3.32) attacks a specific Location rather than an entire hex, and cannot be used to attack an AFV.]


I believe the answer here is no.

My reality argument is that Small Arms fire is directional: the bullets are streaming in from one direction. With HE + ITT, though, the HE rounds are landing in the Location and scattering fragments in all directions from the point of impact, so even if the partially armored vehicle is presenting an unarmored facing toward the firer, when the HE rounds hit, the fragments may be impinging on a different facing of the vehicle. Vulnerable PRC, though, are still in jeopardy if the vehicle is hit.
 
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PresterJohn

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I am not reading A9.51 to say that an AFV can be destroyed by fire on the IFT. Only that that the crew can be affected by that fire (and possibly forced to abandon the AFV).
 

Bill Kohler

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How are you reading the "and"? (I think that if the meaning you suggest were all that was intended, the sentence could have safely ended just before the "and".)
 
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Jazz

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I am not reading A9.51 to say that an AFV can be destroyed by fire on the IFT. Only that that the crew can be affected by that fire (and possibly forced to abandon the AFV).

"...but can affect Vulnerable PRC and unarmored/partially armored vehicles in the same manner as Small Arms Fire "
 

afgur

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Jazz, Bill, do you agree that it doesn't matter if only turret is unarmored vs small arms?

Alan
 

Bill Kohler

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That's my interpretation. Valuable engine and control and gasoline and steering and whatnot is exposed. Take that out, and the vehicle loses its functionality.
 

Sparafucil3

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Hello all

Small arms shoots at AFV with unarmored rear turret. If I remember correctly location of hit is determined by IFT DR, but I can't find where it is stated in the rulebook. Can I get some help?

Thanks
Alan
This whole thing is worth an article. Too bad I wrote one today :D
  • It is still and AFV. Vulnerable PRC are attacked with a General Collateral Attack if vulnerable
  • The AFV is attacked on the * vehicle line if the Line of Fire (LOF) attacks the AFV through an unarmored aspect
    • I don't think there is a need to roll the location of the hit, the hit is assumed to be against the unarmored aspect
  • If attacking a partially armored AFV in your own hex, then it is considered "armored" since there is no real LOF here [EXC: upper level Location to an open topped AFV]
  • Residual also has no LOF so it is presumed to be attacking an armored vehicle
    • A FIRE LANE does have an LOF so it is possible to determine LOF so it could attack an unarmored aspect
This is my understanding. -- jim
 

Bill Kohler

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The AFV is attacked on the * vehicle line if the Line of Fire (LOF) attacks the AFV through an unarmored aspect
--I don't think there is a need to roll the location of the hit, the hit is assumed to be against the unarmored aspect
That's that case for Small Arms and Fire Lanes, I agree. But with VTT/ATT (and ITT if it applies), you would of course still need to roll for hit, and for hit Location.

With MGs, if you treat it as Small Arms, then no hit location is needed. But if you do a To Kill attack, then hit Location is needed.

And FTs and DCs and MOLs add a whole other set of cases with respect to partially armored vehicles . . . and throw in all of the same-hex attack situations, and VBM of the same hex, etc. Complications abound.

(But it helps to remember that, in ASL, all partially armored vehicles are also OT.)
 
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