IIFT Use in Playtests

johnl

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There is a discussion going on in Rules & Errata about the use of optional rules. I have always assumed that ALL scenarios are designed and playtested using the IFT and that, therefore, the use of the IIFT could push a scenario slightly one way or the other. 3FP LMGs come to mind.

So, do any designers/playtesters use or take into account the IIFT when working on new scenarios?
 

von Marwitz

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There is a discussion going on in Rules & Errata about the use of optional rules. I have always assumed that ALL scenarios are designed and playtested using the IFT and that, therefore, the use of the IIFT could push a scenario slightly one way or the other. 3FP LMGs come to mind.

So, do any designers/playtesters use or take into account the IIFT when working on new scenarios?
Well, I can reveal that I playtested a couple of scenarios using the IIFT (with CTC) with the designer which have later been published by respected companies and that have received praise by people who'd never touch anything but the IFT. I make no claim that these have exclusively been playtested using the IIFT.

To spare the IFT-purists the mental pain of having been "betrayed", I won't tell you which ones... ;)

I think that it depends on a number of factors if a scenario turns out to be balanced or not.
In some scenarios, using the IFT or IIFT might play more of a role, in others hardly any.
Some scenarios are balanced for very experienced players but not so for less experienced ones and vice versa.
The list could go on.

We also see, that many scenarios, of which we know they have been thoroughly playtested, still are not reported as 'balanced' in the long run after many playings on ROAR and/or the ASL Scenario Archive.

Overall, I believe, archieving balance is more an art than a science on one hand and also depends on the players involved on the other.

von Marwitz
 

Actionjick

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Well, I can reveal that I playtested a couple of scenarios using the IIFT (with CTC) with the designer which have later been published by respected companies and that have received praise by people who'd never touch anything but the IFT. I make no claim that these have exclusively been playtested using the IIFT.

To spare the IFT-purists the mental pain of having been "betrayed", I won't tell you which ones... ;)

I think that it depends on a number of factors if a scenario turns out to be balanced or not.
In some scenarios, using the IFT or IIFT might play more of a role, in others hardly any.
Some scenarios are balanced for very experienced players but not so for less experienced ones and vice versa.
The list could go on.

We also see, that many scenarios, of which we know they have been thoroughly playtested, still are not reported as 'balanced' in the long run after many playings on ROAR and/or the ASL Scenario Archive.

Overall, I believe, archieving balance is more an art than a science on one hand and also depends on the players involved on the other.

von Marwitz
Balance is an illusion. ASL balance doubly so. Lol I have a very sceptical opinion when it comes to balance.
 

Eagle4ty

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When I've play-tested a scenario against several different opponents I always used to try the same scenario using both the IFT and IIFT depending upon the preferences of my opponents. I feel that there was VERY little difference in the outcome based upon the use of either fire table (if so it was imperceptible to me). The biggest difference was the flow of the game and tactics used or perhaps a perceived design flaw that allowed one side or the other to gain an advantage or in some cases even break the scenario. As for me I'll play either fire table with a flip of a coin or predicated upon a dr. IIRC I always let the developer know what table I used while play-testing when I reported back to them.
 

Jazz

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Balance is an illusion. ASL balance doubly so. Lol I have a very sceptical opinion when it comes to balance.
Possibly not quite an illusion, but very much an erratically moving target.

A scenario that is balanced between two beginner players can be a three-legged woofer to two seasoned competitive players....and vice-versa.
 

wrongway149

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In some scenarios, using the IFT or IIFT might play more of a role, in others hardly any.
Some scenarios are balanced for very experienced players but not so for less experienced ones and vice versa.
The list could go on.

We also see, that many scenarios, of which we know they have been thoroughly playtested, still are not reported as 'balanced' in the long run after many playings on ROAR and/or the ASL Scenario Archive.

Overall, I believe, achieving balance is more an art than a science on one hand and also depends on the players involved on the other.

von Marwitz
There are as many variables in playtesting as there are in any ASL game.

Whether they used the IIFT or IFT is only slightly more important than whether they rolled dice in a glass or a tower.

All of my designs have their initial playtest using a standard Holiday Inn rocks glass, or one from Dollar Tree. So if you use anything else to roll your dice, don't come crying to me about balance.
 

wrongway149

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Possibly not quite an illusion, but very much an erratically moving target.

A scenario that is balanced between two beginner players can be a three-legged woofer to two seasoned competitive players....and vice-versa.
As long it's FUN for all levels of play, I will call it a successful scenario design.
 

Robin Reeve

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Balance is a important, but not perfect balance.
A designer should try to offer a situation where each players stand a reasonable chance to win.
Pitting twelve T-34 vs one immobilized Pz IB is a bad design and the imbalance of the situation is a factor to judge the quality of the design.
 

Actionjick

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I will graciously let Actionjick take the Pz IB. 😝
Not wanting to highjick another thread, this challenge, in an entirely different form, will briefly continue in the Shanghaid thread. Then it will go to an entirely new thread entitled " Actionjick Takes His Lumps ". This will be dedicated to Robin and his annoyingly excellent memory concerning past remarks on my part about taking the underdog in an overwhelmingly hopeless situation.

We who are about to die should learn to keep their mouths shut.🤣🤣🤣
 
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Robin Reeve

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Robin and his annoyingly excellent memory concerning past remarks on my part about taking the underdog in an overwhelmingly hopeless situation
You think too highly of me: my post was just for jest, by pure coincidence with what you may have said otherwhere about playing the underdog. 😉

Getting older, you know, you lose two things: memory and... and... aaaand... 😶
 

Actionjick

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You think too highly of me: my post was just for jest, by pure coincidence with what you may have said otherwhere about playing the underdog. 😉

Getting older, you know, you lose two things: memory and... and... aaaand... 😶
I took your comment as a hilarious jest but felt that if I was going to shoot my mouth off I should at least be willing to back up my braggadocio statement with some Action! This one's for you Robin!!🤣😉😘😘
 

Stewart

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Player skill or lack thereof is about 20x more important than the minor impact that a DR can overcome from the IIFT.

With that being said...why use a Piledriver when a small hammer will work?
 

Philippe D.

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The next time I play a (not too large) scenario using the IIFT (which is my default), I will try to write down the number of attacks where the result would have been different (taking into account any MC/TC result) with the IFT.

My bet is on a single digit number. Compare to the number of occasions where one player or another misjudges a LOS, or fails to guess what a concealed stack really is.
 
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