Identification of Pajis Counters when setting them up HIP

[ireland94]

Identification of Panjis Counters when setting them up HIP

I suspect there is a solution for this problem, but the search capabilities of the GameSquad site leave much to be desired.

G9.1-2 suggests that HIP Panji Counters should be identified A, B, etc. so that a separate "delayed" note can be made for each such HIP Panji Counter.

"Delayed Notes" are created in VASL from the "Notes" tool button on the VASL Controls Window.

The problem is the the Panji Counter with VASL does not provide for adding a label or anything else to make each Panji Counter unique.

Of course, you could record a note for each Panji Counter, giving its location and hex sides affected by the counter.

However, it would be so much more convenient if the counter could be labeled like Guns and Vehicles.

If I have lots of Panjis Counters, not being about to label them is a lot of pain when I try to figure out which is where.

Then there is the trust issue across VASL.

What solutions have you tried?

 

[bprobst]

Re: Identification of Panjis Counters when setting them up HIP

G9.1-2 suggests that HIP Panji Counters should be identified A, B, etc. so that a separate "delayed" note can be made for each such HIP Panji Counter.

Not entirely sure what you're talking about here. Do you mean G9.11 and its reference to recording HIP Panji hexsides?

You don't need to record any Notes in VASL. Right-click on the counter and you can see the options for which hexsides are covered by that counter. You will also see that you can HIP the counter. So you can see where it is and what hexsides are actually covered, and your opponent cannot. Mission accomplished.

This is true for most things in VASL -- almost every counter can be flagged as HIP, which 99.9% of the time means you just place the counter on the map and don't need to record any Notes of any kind (although you can if you want).

"Delayed" Notes in VASL don't work properly unless you play your entire game within a single session. They are not saved if you close the game, making them functionally useless IMO.

 

[von Marwitz]

Re: Identification of Panjis Counters when setting them up HIP

There used to be a bug with VASL Panjis, though. The last time I played them was 2010, however, so it might be fixed by now.

Back then, it was possible, that a Panji counter turned blank pink if you selected a particular combination of Panji/Non-Panji hexsides for the counter.

von Marwitz

 

[ireland94]

Re: Identification of Panjis Counters when setting them up HIP

The question I posed was that G9.11 discusses HIPping the Panji Counter.

To properly HIP, a VASL "Delayed Note" is record from the (VASL controls window)->(Notes tool button)->(Delayed tab).

The normal procedure is that name of the "Delayed Note" is the identification of the associated counter being HIPped.

For example, you may have two German "88 AA FlaK 41"s, which you have used the "Label" feature of the counter as "Grm AA A" and "Grm AA B".

Further, the scenario being played allows for the two German guns to be set up as HIP.

You create two "Delayed Note"s named "Grm AA A" and "Grm AA B".

Each note then gives the location and cover arc of its associated gun.

Guns and manning crew may the be placed HIPped on the board.

The HIPped gun and crew can be placed put on the board or held off to the side of the board.

The important thing is that there is a "Delayed Note" that gives all the pertinent information and the name of the "Delayed Note" has an unique named relationship with the associated counter.

When any action for a particular gun would cause it to lose HIP status, the owning player "Reveal"s the contents of the associated "Delayed Note".

Continuing the example, Grm AA B wants to fire,
[Step 1] Owning player "Reveal"s the contents of "Delayed Note" Grm AA B.
[Step 2] Owning player either (a) unHIPs the gun and manning crew if counters are already on the board, or (b) places unHIPped gun and crew counter in the hex. In either case the gun and crew have the location and covered arc as specified in the associated "Delayed Note".

Now I come to the crux of the problem associated with Panji Counters.

There is no way to label the counters.

It is still possible to create a "Delayed Note" for the each HIPped Panji Counter but it is impossible to name the "Delayed Note" the same as the "Label" of the actual Panji Counter since the Panji Counter has no "Label" option.

Regardless of the "Delayed Note" naming convention used, the contents of the note list
(a) the location, i.e., 38c5
(b) number of clockwise connected "Covered Hexside"s of the Panji Counter, i.e., 3.
(c) the orientation of the Panji Counter, similar to "Sniper" or "SR" Counter direction, i.e., 5 would be northwest side of containing hex with respect to the owning players point of view.

This issue is complete separate from the "Covered Hexside" associated with a Panji Counter.

If I have six Panji Counters, I will need six "Delayed Note"s.

"Delayed Note"s could be named "Panji A", "Panji B", etc.

Using names such as "Pahji in 38a4" would be totally unacceptable as the "Delayed Note" name is visible to both players, and the note name gives the location "38a4" making the concept of HIP useless.

With names like "Panji A" the owning player would need to examine each Panji "Delayed Note" to know which to "Reveal".

There is a disconnect between the VASL implementation of the Panji Counter and the rule G9.11 that is NOT present with infantry units, SWs, Ordnance, and Vehicles.

This HIPping and Labeling problem occurs with lots if not all of the VASL counters from (VASL counters window)->(Info tab) that support HIP

It is interesting that the "Pillbox", "Cave", and "Cuploa" counters which all can be HIPped also support Labeling.

Similarly, the "Acquire" counter supports both HIPping and Labeling because of the need to "Bore Sighting".

Clearly not all (VASL counters window)->(Info tab) counters need to support both, but if the counter can be HIPped it should also support Labeling.

"Fortified Building Location" is specifically another counter that needs to support both HIPping and Labeling.

It is not a problem of the physical size of the counters because the large counter size of Ordnance, Vehicles, Pillboxes, etc. do not have the issue of HIPping and labeling.

I am using the latest VASL, 6.1.0 as of November 21, 2014.

 

[bprobst]

Re: Identification of Panjis Counters when setting them up HIP

To properly HIP, a VASL "Delayed Note" is ....

I am sorry, but ... why are you creating all this extra work for yourself?

If you want to HIP a counter and then associate it with a written note in VASL, you're certainly allowed to. But ... you are creating approximately three to four times the amount of work needed in order to actually play.

To "properly HIP" a counter in VASL: right-click and select "HIP". Done. When the counter has to be revealed: right-click and select "HIP" again. Done, again. Which part of this could-not-be-easier process do you feel is inadequate, and why?

As I said, you're free to jot down whatever notes you like, if you feel you need to do so. I assure you that your opponent will not care, unless it interferes with the play of the game, at which point he is entitled to ask you to do that stuff on your own time.

And to repeat what I said above, DO NOT rely on "delayed notes" in VASL; they don't work the way they're supposed to, because they don't get saved.

BTW, if you are insisting, against all reason, in using these notes, you still don't need to label panji counters. They already have a label: the hex that they've been placed in. "Panji 36D5" is just as informative as "Panji counter A in hex 36D5".

(vM: yes, there was a problem with pink Panjis a couple of versions ago, but I'm pretty sure that bug has been fixed. Actually even if not I think it's only a cosmetic issue?)

 

[Sully]

Re: Identification of Panjis Counters when setting them up HIP

And to repeat what I said above, DO NOT rely on "delayed notes" in VASL; they don't work the way they're supposed to, because they don't get saved.

This was fixed in 6.1. Let me know if you're still seeing the problem - I'm using it in my games and it's working fine.

 

[witchbottles]

Re: Identification of Panjis Counters when setting them up HIP

This was fixed in 6.1. Let me know if you're still seeing the problem - I'm using it in my games and it's working fine.

I'm glad it is fixed, it was a major issue before.

In any case, and to the original poster's items:

1. I don't play VASL games ( or ASL) to a "cut - throat" competitive play focus such that I would require notations for HIP stuff. Seriously, it's just a game, and I am not going to take it so seriously that I cannot trust my opponent is doing the right thing with his HIP. The game itself requires a level of trust between players over that, and in reality, if I was so concerned, I'd likely not be playing that opponent in the first place.

2. If my opponent was that concerned about HIP as to require annotation thusly as you describe, I would congratulate him on a win, concede, shake his hand ( reluctantly), and move on. Playing the damn game ain't worth the headache of such silliness. Really, if you mistrust your opponent, why play the game at all?

3. I like " delayed notes" for things like boresighting ( Dave, when are we ever going to get a Boresight draggable overlay counter so it doesn't get picked up when a stack is moving like a HIP AQ counter does?); creeping barrage timing notations, bombardment notations; variable reinforcement entry notes, etc. I think it is a useful tool for those things. Unfortunately for so long it has been "buggy" that it has really just fallen out of use altogether for the most part. Nowadays, I keep my HASL CG RG purchases in a text file rather than as "delayed notes".

just my $.02, really.

KRL, Jon H

 

[bprobst]

Re: Identification of Panjis Counters when setting them up HIP

This was fixed in 6.1. Let me know if you're still seeing the problem - I'm using it in my games and it's working fine.

Oh, OK -- I don't remember seeing a "this was fixed" alert when 6.1 was released, so I've never even tried. I'll check it out.

It's one of those features that you would hardly ever use, but when you need it, you really want it!

 

[ireland94]

Re: Identification of Panjis Counters when setting them up HIP

Let me give you some background.

I do lots of setups.

I teach Starter Kit.

Because I teach/player people all over the world and have done so with several players that do not speak English, anything I can do that clarifies the EXACT intent is a playing/teaching aid.

"Notes" are there to replace the face-to-face secretly pre-recorded handwritten note.

As an online replacement of a handwritten note the same secrecy and verifiability must be supported.

Suppose you have 10 punji counters.

You create a separate note for each.

If you are playing face=to-face, you only need expose the appropriate and easily found secret location note on your piece of paper.

It is not so simple with Notes if the punji counter does not support a label.

As far as saving, they do get saved, because I have repeated done saves of both revealed and unrevealed delayed notes with no problem.

The only problem I have ever seen with delayed notes is when there are TWO copies of the extension.

Having two or more copies installed is easily identified because multiple copies of the "Notes" tool button appear in the VASL controls window.

Further note that a punji counter does NOT have a menu option for label.

What you are refering to a label is just VASL internal bookkeeping.

The issue of HIP and labeling is most commonly seen in PTO scenarios.

A review of PTO rules and PTO scenarios with HIPped fortifications yields several examples.

Let's take ASL 74 Bloody Red Beach from "Gung Ho".

The Japanese get 3 wire counters that are to be set up HIP on any beach hex.

The wire counter supports HIPping but not labeling.

To do the secret pre-recording required 3 separate "Delayed Notes".

OK, you label your notes Wire-1, Wire-2, and Wire-3, each with a location.

(1) You being "old school", do not HIP the counters on the board but keep them off to the side as you would in a face-to-face game.

Remember, if you HIP in VASL you as the HIPper get a ghost counter.

Every time your opponent moves into a new beach hex, you would possibly need to search all your "Wire-x" delayed notes to see if the hex contains a wire.

(2) You are not dumb as a rock and you do HIP you Wire-s counters on the board.

Every time your opponent moves into a new beach hex containing a ghost Wire-s counter, you would possibly need to search all your "Wire-x" delayed notes to find the correct note to reveal.

The same search problem is present with each and every counter type that allows HIP but does not have a label property.

I have found at least 12
A) Punji
B) Wire
C) Foxhole
D) Trench
E) AT Ditch
F) Fortified Building
G) Mouse Trap
H) Tetrahedron
I) Fanatic Strongpoint
J) Blockhouse (from Ponyri)
K) Emplacement (from Ponyri)
L) Revetment (from Ponyri)

The argument that you present could easily applied to fortified counters that do support HIPping and labeling.

I have found at least 7.

A) Roadblock
B) Hasty Roadblock
C) Barricade
D) Cave
E) Pillbox
F) 360 Pillbox
G) Tunnels

It is clear that at a minimum there is an inconsistency in the for HIPping and labeling amongst the fortification counters, i.e., some HIP and label, others only HIP.

I play/teach in 1 hour segments.

I do NOT sit down and play a scenario to completion unless it can be completed in an hour or less.

As my father told me more than once when playing cards "Cutting the deck is necessary between gentlemen, customary between thieves".

 

[bprobst]

Re: Identification of Panjis Counters when setting them up HIP

Suppose you have 10 punji counters. You create a separate note for each.

Why? You have been writing pages about what you are doing, and what you want to do, and not a single word about why you think any of it is actually necessary in the VASL environment.

If you are playing face=to-face ...

But you're not, so it doesn't matter.

(1) You being "old school", do not HIP the counters on the board but keep them off to the side as you would in a face-to-face game.

That's kind of dumb. It's VASL. You don't need to be "old school". Stop doing that and your game setups will be considerably easier.

Remember, if you HIP in VASL you as the HIPper get a ghost counter.

Yes, that's why it's about 3 billion per cent better than dragging the counter off the map.

Every time your opponent moves into a new beach hex, you would possibly need to search all your "Wire-x" delayed notes to see if the hex contains a wire.

Hence why you shouldn't do that. It's dumb. You're creating extra work for yourself, with no benefit.

Every time your opponent moves into a new beach hex containing a ghost Wire-s counter, you would possibly need to search all your "Wire-x" delayed notes to find the correct note to reveal.

DON'T USE A NOTE. Just reveal the counter. You don't need notes, and you're complicating your own game by using them. Problem solved!

The same search problem is ...

... being created by yourself. Stop doing that.

It is clear that at a minimum there is an inconsistency in the for HIPping and labeling amongst the fortification counters, i.e., some HIP and label, others only HIP.

Granted, but since the HIP functionality is the only attribute that's actually important in VASL, it doesn't matter.

I can't clip the counter corners in VASL, which IMO is highly desirable in FTF gaming. Would you like to guess how much I care that there is no corner-clipping functionality in VASL? Go on, guess.

If your answer is not "not one tiny bit", you get another guess. Why don't I care? Because playing FTF and playing VASL are not identical environments, and what is important in one is not necessarily equally important in the other.

I do NOT sit down and play a scenario to completion unless it can be completed in an hour or less.

Then why on earth are you adding so much overhead to your games? Stop doing that, and you'll be doing more game and less book-keeping.

 

[pward]

Why not label your private note with the hex where the item is located?

Instead of "wire 1" say "5Q7 wire"...

Indexing, not just a good idea for libraries and databases.