German wording help needed

dlazov

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So I am trying to figure out how in the German langue you would write the following:

1st Company, 1st Battalion, SS Panzer Grenadier Regiment 21, 10th SS Panzer Division 'Frundsberg'

Would it be:
1.Kompanie/1.Battalion/SS Panzer Grenadier Regiment 21/10th SS Panzer Division 'Frundsberg'

Did they use slashes or periods or what is the best way to create this?

Thanks in advance.
 

dlazov

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Maybe:

Elements of 1.Battalion/SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 21, and SS-Sturmgeschutz-Abteilung 10 of 10th SS-Panzerdivision 'Frundsberg'*
 

von Marwitz

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So I am trying to figure out how in the German langue you would write the following:

1st Company, 1st Battalion, SS Panzer Grenadier Regiment 21, 10th SS Panzer Division 'Frundsberg'

Would it be:
1.Kompanie/1.Battalion/SS Panzer Grenadier Regiment 21/10th SS Panzer Division 'Frundsberg'

Did they use slashes or periods or what is the best way to create this?

Thanks in advance.
It would be:

1. Kompanie, I. Bataillon, SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 21, 10. SS-Panzerdivision "Frundsberg"

Note the spelling of Bataillon.
Note the different numerals (Arabic and Roman)
Note also the dashes within the unit designation.*
Note finally when the "number" of the unit is provided before or after it.

There seem to be varying ways to spell the unit designations:

SS-Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment or SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment. SS-Panzer-Division or SS-Panzerdivision.
If abbreviated, it would be SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 21 or 10. SS-Pz.Div. "Frundsberg"

With regard to numerals - generally, it is

arabic numerals for Companies, Regiments and Division and
roman numerals for Battalions and Corps.

So you have (somewhat of) an alternation between arabic and roman numerals, but watch the regiments.
Usually the numeral comes before the unit. In case of regiments it comes after.

1./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 21 would mean 1. Kompanie of SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 21
II./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 21 would mean II. Bataillon of SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 21

von Marwitz
 
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dlazov

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Is this correct?

1.Kompanie/3.Battalion/SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 21/SS-Panzerdivision 10 'Frunsberg'

Or this?
1.Kompanie/3.Battalion/21.SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment/10.SS-Panzer-Division "Frundesberg"

Or perhaps a shorthand?

1 and 2 Kompanine/I./Pz.Gren.Rgt.21/SS-Panzer-Division.20 "Frundesberg"

???
 

dlazov

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Sorry cross-posted. I'll wait till you can give me a good read on this. I really do appreciate it!
 

dlazov

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So your saying it's :

1. Kompanie, I. Bataillon, SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 21, 10. SS-Panzerdivision "Frundsberg"
 

dlazov

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It would be:

1. Kompanie, I. Bataillon, SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 21, 10. SS-Panzerdivision "Frundsberg"

Edit: Hold on a minute - still checking something...

Note the spelling of Bataillon.
Note the different numerals (Arabic and Roman)
Note also the dashes within the unit designation.
Note finally when the "number" of the unit is provided before or after it.

von Marwitz
So I think this sounds right?

1.Kompanie/I.Bataillon/SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 21/10.SS-Panzerdivision "Frundsberg"
 

von Marwitz

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Maybe:

Elements of 1.Battalion/SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 21, and SS-Sturmgeschutz-Abteilung 10 of 10th SS-Panzerdivision 'Frundsberg'*
If you would use historical designations, this would amount to:

I./SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 21 or I./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 21 and
SS-Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 10, 10. SS-Panzer-Division "Frundsberg" or SS-Stug.Abt. 10, 10. SS-Pz.Div. "Frundsberg"

In ASL lingo I would put it

Elements of I. Bataillon, SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 21, and SS-Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 10, 10. SS-Panzer-Division "Frundsberg".

Note that in case of artillery, regimental formations were not called Regiment but Abteilung. As StuGs counted as assault artillery, you speak of a Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung as opposed to a Panzer-Regiment.

von Marwitz
 
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von Marwitz

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So I think this sounds right?

1.Kompanie/I.Bataillon/SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 21/10.SS-Panzerdivision "Frundsberg"
You need spaces between the numeral and the unit.
Besides that, as there seem to be various ways in which German units were spelled in historical records, you might select Panzergrenadier-Regiment and Panzer-Division (as to consitently separate the unit size from the rest with a dash).

1. Kompanie/I. Bataillon/SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 21/10. SS-Panzer-Division "Frundsberg"

or

1. Kompanie, I. Bataillon, SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 21, 10. SS-Panzer-Division "Frundsberg"

The latter seems somewhat closer to the ASL norm.


von Marwitz
 

von Marwitz

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1./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 21 would mean 1. Kompanie of SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 21
II./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 21 would mean II. Bataillon of SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 21

With regard to the above I might further explain some things:

In German records, you will either find something like 1./XYZ Rgt. or I./XYZ Rgt. but not 1./I./XYZ Rgt.

Why is that so?

To illustrate, I will use an Infantry Regiment.

At least early in the war, an Infanterie-Regiment consisted of three infantry battalions and some units inherent to the regiment. An Infanterie-Bataillon consisted of four infantry companies and some units inherent to the battalion.

The numbering of the companies followed a certain pattern:

I. Bataillon (companies 1 - 4)
II. Bataillon (companies 5 - 8)
III. Bataillon (companies 9 - 12)

Inherent to the regiment (companies 13 -14)

The first three companies (i.e. 1-3, 5-7, and 9-11) in each Bataillon were normal infantry companies. The fourth company in each Battaillon (i.e. 4, 8, and 12) was the "Heavy Weapons" company. The 13. company was the Infantry-Gun Company, the 14. company the ATG company.

So 1./Inf.Rgt. 21 would mean the 1st (normal) infantry company of I. Btln. of the regiment.
8./Inf.Rgt. 21 would mean the heavy weapons company of II. Btln. of the regiment.
14./Inf.Rgt. 21 would mean the inherent regimental ATG company.

Because the company ID is sufficient to describe also the Btln. it is part of, there is no need for 1./I./Inf.Rgt. 21 but 1./Inf.Rgt. 21 is unique.

If you read of II./Inf.Rgt. 21 this would mean that the entire II. Btln. of Inf.Rgt. 21 is involved.
If you read of 8./Inf.Rgt. 21 it would be only 8th (Heavy weapons) company II. Btln. of Inf.Rgt. 21.
If you read II./Inf.Rgt. 21 ohne 8. that means 2nd Btln. of Infantry Regiment 21 but without the 8th (heavy weapons) company, i.e. only 5., 6., and 7. (normal) infantry companies of II. Btln.
If you read II./Inf.Rgt. 21 mit 13. that means the all four companies of II. Btln. plus the inherent (13th) Infantry Gun company of the regiment.

Such details are not known to the usual ASLer. Thus you are probably better off saying

1. Kompanie, I. Bataillon, SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 21, 10. SS-Panzer-Division "Frundsberg"

instead of the historically more accurate designation (in ASL lingo)

1. Kompanie, SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 21, 10. SS-Panzer-Division "Frundsberg"


von Marwitz
 
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von Marwitz

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Maybe:

Elements of 1.Battalion/SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 21, and SS-Sturmgeschutz-Abteilung 10 of 10th SS-Panzerdivision 'Frundsberg'*
Just for a moment I thought I had figured out what you were doing:

I am just setting up RPT157 Ozarks and Frundsbergers. It includes elements of

SS-Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 10, 10. SS-Panzer-Division "Frundsberg"

That is pretty darn close to

SS-Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 10, 10. SS-Panzer-Division "Frundsberg".

So, doing some western front December 1944 action? :)

von Marwitz
 

dlazov

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Close von Marwitz, it was the mini-CG from CH, the Crossing Sweepers. Set in June 29th 1944. But very close :D
 

dlazov

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BTW your post really helped explain things with how the Germans used a number system which is different then the British and US. Not sure exactly how the French and Russians (or Italians) numbered or letter their companies, but very interesting and insightful thread.
 

Justiciar

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.Not sure exactly how the French and Russians (or Italians) numbered or letter their companies, but very interesting and insightful thread.
For French...see LFT cards EX FT231...it is similar (but not exact) to US style...when you have coy, bn. regt. If you only have Bn to regt...like FT239 then you can see a parallel to the German "II/15th Regiment"...meaning 2nd Bn of the 15th Regimen...

[You could directly ask/post a thread over in the LFT folder to ask ...I am sure Xavier, Benj, Laurent or Lionel etc will give you a a more precise answer.]

Looking at my old KGS Russian WW2 original doc. they used 1/82, 2/82...1st Bn/82nd R.R., 2 Bn/82nd R.R.
 

von Marwitz

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BTW your post really helped explain things with how the Germans used a number system which is different then the British and US. Not sure exactly how the French and Russians (or Italians) numbered or letter their companies, but very interesting and insightful thread.
Glad that I could be of help.

I am not a historian nor nearly as competent as Mr. Weir in all things running of tracks. But I have read one book or the other and, of course, speaking the language helps.

Sometimes, hairraising details in German historical reports are "hidden" because the writers took certain knowledge for granted. So if you read an early war report on the Eastern front about "I./Inf.Rgt 34 ohne 4." being on the sharp end of a Russian regimental sized attack supported by tanks, this would be far more chilling for the defenders than if it were "I./Inf.Rgt. 34 mit 14."

Cheers,
von Marwitz
 
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Paul M. Weir

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I am not a historian nor nearly as competent as Mr. Weir in all things running of tracks. But I have read one book or the other and, of course, speaking the language helps.
No need to be modest, I don't remember a history type post from you that I would disagree with. Furthermore you provide information that is beyond my competence as demonstrated in this thread.

While I may have a reputation for knowledge on clanking toys, I am very regularly amazed, nay stunned, at the level of historical minutiae, like OoBs, demonstrated by so many others here. Quite frankly there are times my reaction is "I havn't the patience and energy for that level of research." followed quickly by a desire to retire to my bed. It really impresses me that we in GS all cover different gaps of WW2 knowledge and our strength is our collective knowledge.
 
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dlazov

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Very well put Paul!

Yes the collective knowledge is impressive, and really no need for “egos”, it nice to have s place where amateurs and or history buffs can talk without arrogance or egos demeaning folks.

I used part of the CH info to dig deeper to get a better understanding of that campaign which got me into the weeds of some German sources and tangled up till von Marwitz helped untangle me lol.

All this caused me to create a campaign game for SPWW2 based on this info and learning.

Note it’s hard to recreate a real battalion sized battle with ASL, way too many counters to push around but in SPWW2 it’s quire easy...
 
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