DTO: The Jick DTO Variation

Actionjick

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I was always a big fan of the DTO but realized it had some issues.

It was mainly armor and combined arms in that theater and SL/ASL is not really accurately scaled for DTO, much more so for other TOO. So IMO the problem is with scale. How to deal with that issue can be approached in a few different ways.

One is to have a heap of boards. Ok if you have the space but stringing LOS over two or three boards could be tricky and a nuisance.

Another option is HASL maps. I am starting to think this is the future trend for designers. We will see.

Changing the traditional 40 meter hex scale is also a way to approach the problem. Each hex becomes 200 meters or some such. ( It's a Dark and Stormy evening and Brigadier Bacardi and I are just throwing some thoughts against the wall ). This could be done with new boards or the existing boards using the The Jick DTO Variation.

The Jick DTO Variation leaves the boards the same but changes the MF/MP costs per hex and the ranges on the TH table.

For example: if each hex is meant to represent 80 meters a typical MMC could move two hexes in OG. Haven't given any research to MP but just off the top of our heads we would use the Matilda as a starting point. IIRC it was meant to be an infantry support tank and basically moved at a foot soldier's pace. Nine MP. Four or six hexes.

The TH table would be modified to the same scale.

Personally I would at least double the MF/MP costs and the TH table.

Again just some thoughts on how to make the DTO more " realistic " and use the kit that is available. New charts are a minor cost.

We welcome any thoughts or input. Feel free to rip this idea to shreds. Our skin is thick like the Matilda.๐Ÿ˜‰
 

brunger

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I was always a big fan of the DTO but realized it had some issues.

It was mainly armor and combined arms in that theater and SL/ASL is not really accurately scaled for DTO, much more so for other TOO. So IMO the problem is with scale. How to deal with that issue can be approached in a few different ways.

One is to have a heap of boards. Ok if you have the space but stringing LOS over two or three boards could be tricky and a nuisance.

Another option is HASL maps. I am starting to think this is the future trend for designers. We will see.

Changing the traditional 40 meter hex scale is also a way to approach the problem. Each hex becomes 200 meters or some such. ( It's a Dark and Stormy evening and Brigadier Bacardi and I are just throwing some thoughts against the wall ). This could be done with new boards or the existing boards using the The Jick DTO Variation.

The Jick DTO Variation leaves the boards the same but changes the MF/MP costs per hex and the ranges on the TH table.

For example: if each hex is meant to represent 80 meters a typical MMC could move two hexes in OG. Haven't given any research to MP but just off the top of our heads we would use the Matilda as a starting point. IIRC it was meant to be an infantry support tank and basically moved at a foot soldier's pace. Nine MP. Four or six hexes.

The TH table would be modified to the same scale.

Personally I would at least double the MF/MP costs and the TH table.

Again just some thoughts on how to make the DTO more " realistic " and use the kit that is available. New charts are a minor cost.

We welcome any thoughts or input. Feel free to rip this idea to shreds. Our skin is thick like the Matilda.๐Ÿ˜‰
You may just get your just desserts asking such questions? Good luck ๐Ÿ˜‰
 

Actionjick

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The Matilda traveled 9 mph off road and 15 mph on roads.

Nine mph is a little over four meters per second. Ten seconds for the Matilda to cross a standard board OG hex.

Just some musings on how this might look. Two hundred meters per hex appeals to me but haven't really thought about it too much and haven't considered the TH table at all.
 

Actionjick

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The Matilda traveled 9 mph off road and 15 mph on roads.

Nine mph is a little over four meters per second. Ten seconds for the Matilda to cross a standard board OG hex.

Just some musings on how this might look. Two hundred meters per hex appeals to me but haven't really thought about it too much and haven't considered the TH table at all.
The problem is infantry movement. Two hundred meters per hex essentially means infantry could only move one hex, even with a Leader's bonus. Still the Variation is meant more for armor than infantry. Perhaps a hybrid? Use the Variation until within a certain range and then switch to the standard Tables?

This requires more thought. I see a very Dark and Stormy afternoon ahead.
 

Actionjick

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The problem is infantry movement. Two hundred meters per hex essentially means infantry could only move one hex, even with a Leader's bonus. Still the Variation is meant more for armor than infantry. Perhaps a hybrid? Use the Variation until within a certain range and then switch to the standard Tables?

This requires more thought. I see a very Dark and Stormy afternoon ahead.
I find this very intriguing. ๐Ÿค”
 

brunger

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The Matilda traveled 9 mph off road and 15 mph on roads.

Nine mph is a little over four meters per second. Ten seconds for the Matilda to cross a standard board OG hex.

Just some musings on how this might look. Two hundred meters per hex appeals to me but haven't really thought about it too much and haven't considered the TH table at all.
A waltzing Matilda goes slowly, quick, quick, slowly. To draw fire ๐Ÿ”ฅ
 

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Don't forget that the Matilda's drive and suspension were not designed for the desert.
A bit of bother that, losing a tread in front of front that Jerry AT-Gun!
 

Actionjick

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Don't forget that the Matilda's drive and suspension were not designed for the desert.
A bit of bother that, losing a tread in front of front that Jerry AT-Gun!
Quite so. Using the Matilda was a lazy way out. Much better going with meters per second.

Movement, especially vehicular movement, in ASL is such an abstraction. It works however.

As I said this Variation is meant for vehicles and not really footsloggers. The hybrid idea really appeals to me. I actually have a few Desert boards so if I need a break from Civilization this might be a great diversion.

The Movement and To Hit tables are just math once the scale is figured out. Then you need scenarios to test it on and that is definitely not a strong point for me.

Colonel Cuervo and I will talk it over and see what pans out. Between Actiondebbie, work, felines and Civilization I wouldn't hold your breath. Just sharpen up your Advanced Cohort Leader skills while waiting.
 

Actionjick

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Human walking speed is about 1.42 meters per second.

Each player turn was supposed to represent two minutes. It seems as if an Infantry unit moving 200 meters in a turn is perhaps a little fast but not bad really. I pretty much felt the two minute thing was something they POOTA.
 

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At 80 - 200 metres per hex scale, you essentially only want a AFV & Gun game. (No Infantry)
Advance Gunner Leader?
 

Actionjick

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At 80 - 200 metres per hex scale, you essentially only want a AFV & Gun game. (No Infantry)
Advance Gunner Leader?
Exactly! That's what I was shooting for ( ๐Ÿ˜‰ ). Also why the idea of a hybrid Variation appeals to me when the range is within a certain number of hexes and Infantry comes into play.
 

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I was always a big fan of the DTO but realized it had some issues.
...
One is to have a heap of boards. Ok if you have the space but stringing LOS over two or three boards could be tricky and a nuisance.
...
Taking a shot with a meaningful chance to hit is also tricky over two or three boards. :)
At first blush, it seems that if you 'zoom out' the map to accommodate longer ranges, the first few turns of the scenario are probably going to be spent moving into 'normal' ASL ranges.
If the idea is to have an infantry battle with some tanks blasting in from off in the distance, I'd probably just have them setup like an offboard observer at level 0 in hex 'whatever'

My $0.02 to enhance your variant.
 

Actionjick

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Taking a shot with a meaningful chance to hit is also tricky over two or three boards. :)
At first blush, it seems that if you 'zoom out' the map to accommodate longer ranges, the first few turns of the scenario are probably going to be spent moving into 'normal' ASL ranges.
If the idea is to have an infantry battle with some tanks blasting in from off in the distance, I'd probably just have them setup like an offboard observer at level 0 in hex 'whatever'

My $0.02 to enhance your variant.
Envision it more for vehicles and guns. The To Hit tables would probably require more research than the movement would. What ranges were vehicles normally targeted at? Lots of variables but it would be interesting to see how ASL could be modified to more accurately reflect DTO combat.
 

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Been a long time, but what were the Hex distances and movement factors in AH's Tobruk?
 
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