Demo Live

dalem

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I just haven't had time to play any more of the demo yet. Again, not a game I'm interested in, but the evolution of it still fascinates me. I mean, I'm a bright guy, I have 10 years of CM under my belt, I've participated in and perused countless discussions about CMx2, and my first time playing CMx2/CMN I found it ... difficult to figure out. Is that relevant? Significant? Petulant?

I dunno yet.

-dale
 

Michael Dorosh

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I just haven't had time to play any more of the demo yet. Again, not a game I'm interested in, but the evolution of it still fascinates me. I mean, I'm a bright guy, I have 10 years of CM under my belt, I've participated in and perused countless discussions about CMx2, and my first time playing CMx2/CMN I found it ... difficult to figure out. Is that relevant? Significant? Petulant?

I dunno yet.

-dale
It's not the figuring out so much, it's the lack of motivation to do so that stands out in my mind. I'm the same way. It's not a crack at BFC, I feel the same about Panzer Command, and I think most new games I get. Maybe it is age-related, but when I got CM:BO, the second time I really sat down with it, I was excited about zipping around the demo and seeing what it could do. I found it compelling.

I guess ease of play is also related to that without a doubt, so maybe we are talking about the same things. But I just don't feel the same crushing need to sit at the computer and see all the features everyone is talking about. It doesn't speak to me.

On the other hand, I can still muster excitement about LOTRO, so perhaps it isn't age-related after all. I still enjoy jumping into that and using the simple command menus and visiting different areas and interacting with the game.

What I miss in CMBN is the ability to hit TAB and follow a unit with the camera. I really wanted to do that just to watch those Shermans climb over terrain and see how they interacted with other units. I think maybe the ability to do that would make things a bit more compelling for me, personally.

I think the unit results screens in both CM and PzC are also off-putting - had to get an overall feel for what is going on, but I suspect it may be just a matter of getting used to them. I never liked the simplified icons in PzC - good idea, but they are TOO simple. If they had ID letters on the soldier and tank icons, it would be more useful. CMBN displays too much info on the other hand - still not a fan of a lot of the 1:1 stuff as I don't think it is relevant to a game of this scale. I don't need to know individual morale states because I am powerless to do anything about them. If Pvt. Jones is feeling shaky, the squad leader can move him to the back of the building, but as the player, I am powerless to intercede and do anything but pull the entire squad out of the line. That's micromanagement.
 
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wengart

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What I miss in CMBN is the ability to hit TAB and follow a unit with the camera. I really wanted to do that just to watch those Shermans climb over terrain and see how they interacted with other units. I think maybe the ability to do that would make things a bit more compelling for me, personally.
Selecting a unit and then hitting tab will lock your camera to the unit. You can then cycle through you units using the - and = buttons.

Hitting the menu button on the bottom right and then selecting hotkeys will bring up a list of usable hotkeys in game.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Selecting a unit and then hitting tab will lock your camera to the unit. You can then cycle through you units using the - and = buttons.

Hitting the menu button on the bottom right and then selecting hotkeys will bring up a list of usable hotkeys in game.
Strange - tried this and didn't work, but it's always been a bit fiddly in the different incarnations. Thanks for posting this, I'll give it another go. I don't usually watch from down low, but even at higher angles it's useful to track a unit and see who can see what.
 

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Well histiry is repeating itself again. People complaining about people complaining on BFC boards and the game isn't even released.
 

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prompted to turn its vulnerable flank to the obstacle, and go hunting, sometimes dozens or hundreds of metres, to the flank for an open passage. It defies logic.
I wanted to give what I hope will be received as a helpful comment on this earlier but I've been on a school trip with my son to the Zoo and still haven't sorted out the copy/paste thing with my dead sexy new phone. Now that I'm in front of a proper computer I hope I remember what I wanted to say.

While I can't get you non-Cullen tanks driving over/through bocage I can help you with the quoted comment and maybe a touch more......

The simple response to your comment about driving around showing flanks and looking for gaps is "don't give tanks movement orders through bocage". I know it sound ssimple and I don't mean it to be insulting.... If you don't try to order tanks to do something that you (we) know they can't do then you won't see that behavior. So when encountering bocage, that you want to have your tank have on the other side of, enlist a different strategy.

Which brings me to the second thing I wanted to say. There are more ways to cross bocage than a rino. HE will blow a hole that infantry and vehicles can pass through. Also, demo charges will blow holes that they can pass through. So if you really want a tank to go through fire some HE at it. Think of it as "softening" up the bocage to execute your non-animationhaving drive across the top.

Which brings to scenario design. I don't do them so I'm hardly one to speak on the topic. However, if you are interested in created maps as you describe, lots of hedgerows and no roads. Don't let driving through the stuff stop you. If you make sure to include at least one of other three bocage crossing elements you can simulate the terrain you want. Make sure there's either rinos, engineers or tanks with HE. Because I would think that ultimately you (or whoever) would not be looking to recreate a scenario that was specifically based on tanks driving through bocage.

Before anyone jumps on me, I understand this does not solve some peoples problems with a perceived major shortcoming of the game but it may be enough to help you get past it.
 

Michael Dorosh

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The simple response to your comment about driving around showing flanks and looking for gaps is "don't give tanks movement orders through bocage". I know it sound ssimple and I don't mean it to be insulting.... If you don't try to order tanks to do something that you (we) know they can't do then you won't see that behavior. So when encountering bocage, that you want to have your tank have on the other side of, enlist a different strategy.

Which brings me to the second thing I wanted to say. There are more ways to cross bocage than a rino. HE will blow a hole that infantry and vehicles can pass through. Also, demo charges will blow holes that they can pass through. So if you really want a tank to go through fire some HE at it. Think of it as "softening" up the bocage to execute your non-animationhaving drive across the top.
I'm aware of the other options. BFC has done well to at least attempt to model some of the solutions to the bocage. They still hold the lead as far as tactical 3D simulations on the subject - though of course, it is by default. But some of the other important methods are directly simulated - i.e. deliberate demolition and the rhino. It's a good start. And the reduction in scale from the 20 metre terrain tile is also a help. The environment is obviously immersive which will make the game popular. I just wouldn't endorse it as my idea of the typical decision tree facing commanders on the spot. As pointed out by others, and I agree, that doesn't effect its value as a game.

Which brings to scenario design. I don't do them so I'm hardly one to speak on the topic.
It's not rocket science (I say this as a published scenario designer and author of a 200 page book on the subject). I don't think one needs a PhD to be "permitted" to talk about it. :)

However, if you are interested in created maps as you describe, lots of hedgerows and no roads. Don't let driving through the stuff stop you. If you make sure to include at least one of other three bocage crossing elements you can simulate the terrain you want.
Yes, but as noted, this is "designing to the scenario" rather than simply laying down the terrain and forces that were there and letting "nature take its course" so to speak. Not that I recommend that as brilliant scenario design - there is some science and art involved if you want to be good at it - but in other game systems, the "artificial" designs are sometimes conspicuous. We shall see how this goes.

Before anyone jumps on me, I understand this does not solve some peoples problems with a perceived major shortcoming of the game but it may be enough to help you get past it.
I don't doubt the bocage scenarios as presented will be enjoyed by many; I just think it is too bad they went this way. Life shall go on. And as we speak, my download has completed.

And while I had the TV turned off, the Bruins scored five(!) goals...
 

ng cavscout

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I'm aware of the other options. BFC has done well to at least attempt to model some of the solutions to the bocage. They still hold the lead as far as tactical 3D simulations on the subject - though of course, it is by default. But some of the other important methods are directly simulated - i.e. deliberate demolition and the rhino. It's a good start. And the reduction in scale from the 20 metre terrain tile is also a help. The environment is obviously immersive which will make the game popular. I just wouldn't endorse it as my idea of the typical decision tree facing commanders on the spot. As pointed out by others, and I agree, that doesn't effect its value as a game.


It's not rocket science (I say this as a published scenario designer and author of a 200 page book on the subject). I don't think one needs a PhD to be "permitted" to talk about it. :)



Yes, but as noted, this is "designing to the scenario" rather than simply laying down the terrain and forces that were there and letting "nature take its course" so to speak. Not that I recommend that as brilliant scenario design - there is some science and art involved if you want to be good at it - but in other game systems, the "artificial" designs are sometimes conspicuous. We shall see how this goes.



I don't doubt the bocage scenarios as presented will be enjoyed by many; I just think it is too bad they went this way. Life shall go on. And as we speak, my download has completed.

And while I had the TV turned off, the Bruins scored five(!) goals...
Go Boston!!!!
 

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I too am finding a lack of motivation learning (re-learning) CM. After clicking a unit and not having the usual right click menu options I began to get discouraged. After not being able to tell when it was time to plot or when the movie was done or needed to be played started to get me bored and then not having the camera work as I was used to it in CMx1 on a dual monitor setup I shut it down and haven't opened it up again yet. Plus it needs a good Dorosh ASL mod. ;) I will say that I haven't had the motivation to do more than install PCO either. Perhaps This Thread gives some insight though I have been enjoying some Pbem ASL via VASL lately.
 

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Yes, but as noted, this is "designing to the scenario" rather than simply laying down the terrain and forces that were there and letting "nature take its course" so to speak. Not that I recommend that as brilliant scenario design - there is some science and art involved if you want to be good at it - but in other game systems, the "artificial" designs are sometimes conspicuous. We shall see how this goes.
I'm picking up a bit of a contridiction here. A scenario designer should be able to just plop units onto a map and let it roll. But a good scenario designer would take the time to understand the units that he is assigning for each side. Either way I think it is extremely rare that tanks in CMBN do not have HE in their load outs. So if you're gonna have tanks trying to cross roadless bocage heavy maps they will almost certainly have HE and the means to cross the bocage. Even in a plop them onto a map and let nature take its course scenario.


I don't doubt the bocage scenarios as presented will be enjoyed by many; I just think it is too bad they went this way. Life shall go on. And as we speak, my download has completed.

And while I had the TV turned off, the Bruins scored five(!) goals...
They seem to be. I haven't spent much time on the BFC public forum (way too many posts and threads for me to keep track of) but I hadn't seen this as a big issue anywhere but heree. So you are probably right on this count as well.

And fornicate the Bruins. They swept my beloved Flyers.
 
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Michael Dorosh

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They seem to be. I haven't spent much time on the BFC public forum (way too many posts and threads for me to keep track of) but I hadn't seen this as a big issue anywhere but heree. So you are probably right on this count as well.

And fornicate the Bruins. They swept my beloved Flyers.
Tampa Bay is doing their best. It is now 6-5. :laugh:
 

Michael Dorosh

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I too am finding a lack of motivation learning (re-learning) CM. After clicking a unit and not having the usual right click menu options I began to get discouraged. After not being able to tell when it was time to plot or when the movie was done or needed to be played started to get me bored and then not having the camera work as I was used to it in CMx1 on a dual monitor setup I shut it down and haven't opened it up again yet. Plus it needs a good Dorosh ASL mod. ;) I will say that I haven't had the motivation to do more than install PCO either. Perhaps This Thread gives some insight though I have been enjoying some Pbem ASL via VASL lately.
Man. This will take some relearning, and I was on the damn CM:SF beta. Just installed the full version and fired up the Brecourt Manor scenario.

Kept looking for the "assault" command for infantry.

Kept getting my infantry killed thinking they would jump into the trench and just SIT there and wait for orders instead of standing up to blaze away. The heroic little bastards.

Of course, those German infantry guns turning around to fire 150mm HE didn't help things either.

I must say, the opening minute was pretty cool - once I got my tab key to work....watching the guys run towards the field, with the sound of the guns firing from two fields over. It was almost like watching the movie.

Of course...I already own the movie....
 

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Man. This will take some relearning, and I was on the damn CM:SF beta. Just installed the full version and fired up the Brecourt Manor scenario.

Kept looking for the "assault" command for infantry.

Kept getting my infantry killed thinking they would jump into the trench and just SIT there and wait for orders instead of standing up to blaze away. The heroic little bastards.

Of course, those German infantry guns turning around to fire 150mm HE didn't help things either.

I must say, the opening minute was pretty cool - once I got my tab key to work....watching the guys run towards the field, with the sound of the guns firing from two fields over. It was almost like watching the movie.

Of course...I already own the movie....
There is actually another scenario that I thought would catch an old timers eye first......
 

Michael Dorosh

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There is actually another scenario that I thought would catch an old timers eye first......
I thought I saw something called Last Defense in the listing....;)

Truth be told, I never had a "relationship" with that one like I did with Chance Encounter. I was a latecomer to CMBO so I never even heard of Riesberg until years after the fact, either.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Oh, and for what it is worth, here is the U.S. Army's official summary of tanks in the hedgerows, recounted from Martin Blumenson's official history volume "Breakout and Pursuit"

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-E-Breakout/index.html

Stuff I find interesting is in bold.

******************************************************************

One of the major problems that had hampered the First Army--how to use tanks effectively in the hedgerow country--appeared to have been solved just before COBRA. The most effective weapon for opening gaps in hedgerows was the tank dozer, a comparatively new development in armored warfare. So recently had its worth been demonstrated that a shortage of the dozers existed in Normandy. Ordnance units converted ordinary Sherman tanks into dozers by mounting a blade on the front. Some hedgerows, however, were so thick that engineers using satchel charges had first to open a hole, which the dozers later cleared and widened.

Because the use of demolitions and tank dozers was time consuming, the tanks in offensive activity had often remained on the roads, and when crosscountry movement became necessary, progress was inevitably slow. In order to speed up the movement of armor, Ordnance units and tankers throughout the army had devoted a great deal of thought and experimentation to find a device that would get tanks through the hedges quickly without tilting the tanks upward, thereby exposing their underbellies and pointing their guns helplessly toward the sky. The gadgets invented in July 1944 were innumerable.

As early as 5 July the 79th Division had developed a "hedgecutter," which Ordnance personnel began attaching to the front of tanks. Five days later the XIX Corps was demonstrating a "salad fork" arrangement, heavy frontal prongs originally intended to bore holes in hedgerow walls to facilitate placing engineer demolition charges but accidentally found able to lift a portion of the hedgerow like a fork and allow the tank to crash through the remaining part of the wall. Men in the V Corps invented a "brush cutter" and a "green-dozer" as anti-hedgerow devices.

The climax of the inventive efforts was achieved by a sergeant in the 102d Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron, Curtis G. Culin, Jr., who welded steel scrap from a destroyed enemy roadblock to a tank to perfect a hedgecutter with several tusklike prongs, teeth that pinned down the tank belly while the tank knocked a hole in the hedgerow wall by force. General Bradley and members of his staff who inspected this hedgecutter on 14 July were so impressed that Ordnance units on the Continent were ordered to produce the device in mass, using scrap metal salvaged from German underwater obstacles on the invasion beaches. General Bradley also sent Col. John B. Medaris, the army Ordnance officer, to England by plane to get depots there to produce the tusks and equip tanks with them and to arrange for transporting to France by air additional arc-welding equipment and special welding crews.

Every effort was made to equip all tanks with this latest "secret weapon," for it enabled a tank to plough through a hedgerow as though the hedgerow were pasteboard. The hedgecutter sliced through the earth and growth, throwing bushes and brush into the air and keeping the nose of the tank down. The device was important in giving tankers a morale lift, for the hedgerows had become a greater psychological hazard than their defensive worth merited.

Named Rhinoceros attachments, later called Rhinos, the teeth were so effective in breaching the hedgerows that tank destroyer and self-propelled gun units also requested them, but the First Army Ordnance Section carefully supervised the program to make certain that as many tanks as possible were equipped first. By the time COBRA was launched three out of every five tanks in the First Army mounted the hedgecutter. In order to secure tactical surprise for the Rhinos, General Bradley forbade their use until COBRA.
***************************************************************
 

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I thought I saw something called Last Defense in the listing....;)

Truth be told, I never had a "relationship" with that one like I did with Chance Encounter. I was a latecomer to CMBO so I never even heard of Riesberg until years after the fact, either.
Back in the day I played that and Riesberg at least as much as Chance Encounter. For anyone familiar with it the memories come rushing back when you look around the map. It was one of the early" wow" goosebump giving moments for me.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Was it this thread that someone - carl render? - mentioned troops firing at tank commanders? I didn't know what you meant until just now. I was fooling around in the editor again, with a company of Shermans vs. a German observer team - just enough so it wouldn't force an auto-surrender while I tested some terrain.

The German observer team ran up to the 2nd floor of a house, and instead of just staying put, with 15 Shermans in view, one of them starts shooting 300 metres away with his MP40, because he can see an exposed tank commander! :) Got a turret hit - on the Sherman - and pretty much POed 15 tanks, which immediately started shooting at him with Brownings.

Not a complaint, just an observation. I now know what you mean....
 
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