D3.7 Vehicular malfunction of MA

[Commissar Piotr]

I should be straight up here with my purpose of this question. I assume we all malfunction our vehicular MA with a B11 if we roll a 11 on a TH DR for example.
What rule do we use for that, because if I read D3.7 correctly, the MA can only malfunction if you roll a 12, no matter of what the B# is?
What is your thoughts on this?
Might this omission in the rules need errata to comply with what is stated in A9.7 where it is obvious that it is the B# that needs to be rolled or higher.

 

[JOS]

C2.28 and its reference to A9.7 seem clear enough to me. Apparently YMMV.
Enjoy, Joshua

 

[Commissar Piotr]

Very good if it was not for that D3.7 is a higher numbered rule.
Are the rules at the start of each chapter an exception from the higher numbered rule principle?

 

[Houtje]

I don't see the problem... D3.7 says: "Whenever a vehicle fires, that armament is subject to breakdown. A printed B# < 12 applies only to the MA unless Vehicle Notes specify otherwise." The point of this sentence is simply that for some vehicles (as will be noted in the Vehicle Notes) their MG complement also has a B11 (e.g.), not just the MA.

And when D3.7 says "Such ordnance malfunctions on an Original To Hit DR of 12", the 'such' refers to vehicles with no Breakdown # printed on the counter (i.o.w. vehicles with an assumed B# of 12), not to all vehicles.

 

[Commissar Piotr]

Where does it say that the B11 means the MA malfunctions on something else than a 12 then?
Compare with the wording of A9.7, where it explicitly states that it is the B# or higher that needs to be rolled?
I am not arguing it should not malfunction, I only argue that it is not what the rule literally says.

 

[Robin Reeve]

D3.7 states that a printed B# < 12 applies to the MA.

A printed B# < 12 applies only to the MA unless Vehicle Notes specify otherwise. Breakdown Numbers are not printed on a vehicle unless the armament is prone to malfunction and has a B# < 12 or a X#;otherwise a B# of 12 is inherently assumed.

Are you implying that B# doesn't imply that a roll of that number or higher generates a malfunction?

 

[Larry]

D3.7: A printed B# < 12 applies only to the MA unless Vehicle
Notes specify otherwise. Breakdown Numbers are
not printed on a vehicle unless the armament is prone to malfunction and
has a B# < 12 or a X#; otherwise a B# of 12 is inherently assumed.

C2.28: BREAKDOWN: All Guns have an inherent B# of 12 if not listed on
the counter. In cases where malfunction was more frequent, a lower B# is
printed on the counter. All normal malfunction and repair provisions apply
(A9.7-.74). If a non-vehicular Gun permanently malfunctions it is immediately
removed from play.

And see the B# entry in the index.

 

[Commissar Piotr]

D3.7 states that a printed B# < 12 applies to the MA.

Are you implying that B# doesn't imply that a roll of that number or higher generates a malfunction?

I am not seeing anywhere in the rules that it is stated.
I do NOT imply it should not malfunction, pointing out that it does not really state in the rules.

 

[Commissar Piotr]

And see the B# entry in the index.

As far as I understand D3.7 is a higher numbered rule than C2.28 and thus takes precedence.
B# in the index do not state what happens if you roll that number, then we have to rely on D3.7 and that rule only states that a weapon with a B# will malfuncion if it rolls a 12, no matter the actual B#.
There is a example that states otherwise and examples are rules but that example is then in violation of the actual rule in D3.7.

 

[Philippe D.]

I don't see where you can honestly see a loophole. C2.28 says all guns have B12 unless they have a different printed B#; it then refers to A9.7 for what a B# means (since A9.7 only talks about SW, and guns are not SWs), and there it is clear that an Original DR >= your B# results in malfunction.

The fact that D3.7 is higher numbered is totally irrelevant, as it is not in contradiction with previous rules. It repeats that vehicular armament has a default B12 unless explicitly printed, and that a printed B# only applies to the MA unless specified (something that is not totally redundant with the previous rules, since some vehicular armement can be both an MA and not a Gun).

 

[Commissar Piotr]

I don't see where you can honestly see a loophole. C2.28 says all guns have B12 unless they have a different printed B#; it then refers to A9.7 for what a B# means (since A9.7 only talks about SW, and guns are not SWs), and there it is clear that an Original DR >= your B# results in malfunction.

The fact that D3.7 is higher numbered is totally irrelevant, as it is not in contradiction with previous rules. It repeats that vehicular armament has a default B12 unless explicitly printed, and that a printed B# only applies to the MA unless specified (something that is not totally redundant with the previous rules, since some vehicular armement can be both an MA and not a Gun).

It is in contradiction because it states that vehicular ordnance malfunction on a TH DR of "12", not higher than the B#. Also states that MG/FT/IFE malfuction on a DR of "12" on IFT/CC DR.
Since D3.7 is higher numbered than C2.28 and states differently it is relevant because it takes precedence.
I agree that should not be the case but it is poorly written and could easily be changed by exchanging "12" for "B#". That is basically my point and such a change would not have any other effect than to make it clear that what we know should be the case would also clearly be what the rule states.

 

[clubby]

I honestly don't even understand how this is a question.

 

[clubby]

It is in contradiction because it states that vehicular ordnance malfunction on a TH DR of "12", not higher than the B#. Also states that MG/FT/IFE malfuction on a DR of "12" on IFT/CC DR.
Since D3.7 is higher numbered than C2.28 and states differently it is relevant because it takes precedence.
I agree that should not be the case but it is poorly written and could easily be changed by exchanging "12" for "B#". That is basically my point and such a change would not have any other effect than to make it clear that what we know should be the case would also clearly be what the rule states.

Generically, vehicular ordnance malfunctions on DR of 12 is a true statement. However, by the application of further notes on a per vehicle basis, it may also malfunction on a roll of 11. If using intensive fire it may also malfunction on a roll of 9 or 10. If captured or being used by inexperienced personnel, so on and so forth. All ordnance malfunctions on a roll of 12, that is true. It's not the only roll that might malfunction ordnance.

 

[Commissar Piotr]

Generically, vehicular ordnance malfunctions on DR of 12 is a true statement. However, by the application of further notes on a per vehicle basis, it may also malfunction on a roll of 11. If using intensive fire it may also malfunction on a roll of 9 or 10. If captured or being used by inexperienced personnel, so on and so forth. All ordnance malfunctions on a roll of 12, that is true. It's not the only roll that might malfunction ordnance.

I get that!
What annoys me to no end is that D3.7 specifically states "12" but A9.7 states "B#" and the latter make perfect sense but the first not so much.

 

[clubby]

Again, it's covering all ordnance, because ALL ordnance breaks on 12. But some ordnance breaks on 12 and another lower number, possibly several lower numbers.

 

[Houtje]

I get that!
What annoys me to no end is that D3.7 specifically states "12" but A9.7 states "B#" and the latter make perfect sense but the first not so much.

D3.7 does NOT simply state "12"; as I quoted above, it states "Such ordnance malfunctions on an Original To Hit DR of 12": the 'such' refers to vehicles with no Breakdown # printed on the counter (i.o.w. vehicles with an assumed B# of 12), not to all vehicles. According to how you interpret the rule (it's just 12 for all Ordnance) the term 'such' has no function - but it does.

Anyway, I've rolled my B# on this question... I'll try for Repair tomorrow

 

[Commissar Piotr]

D3.7 does NOT simply state "12"; as I quoted above, it states "Such ordnance malfunctions on an Original To Hit DR of 12": the 'such' refers to vehicles with no Breakdown # printed on the counter (i.o.w. vehicles with an assumed B# of 12), not to all vehicles. According to how you interpret the rule (it's just 12 for all Ordnance) the term 'such' has no function - but it does.

Anyway, I've rolled my B# on this question... I'll try for Repair tomorrow

At least it was not necessarily a 12.

 

[Vinnie]

3.7 MALFUNCTION: Whenever a vehicle fires, that armament is subject to breakdown. A printed B# < 12 applies only to the MA unless Vehicle Notes specify otherwise. Breakdown Numbers are not printed on a vehicle unless the armament is prone to malfunction and has a B# < 12 or a X#; otherwise a B# of 12 is inherently assumed. Such ordnance malfunctions on an Original To Hit DR of 12 and MG/FT/IFE malfunctions on an Original IFT/CC DR of 12.

9.7 SUPPORT WEAPON (SW) MALFUNCTION: Whenever a SW fires there is a chance it will jam or run out of ammunition. Each SW has an inherent B12 unless it has a Breakdown Number printed on its counter in the form "B#" or "X#". Whenever a SW participates in an attack in which the Original IFT resolution DR (or To Hit DR in the case of ordnance weapons) is ≥ that SW's B#, that SW malfunctions and is inverted (or if the SW has an X#, the SW has permanently malfunctioned and is removed).

I don't like the fact I agree with Peter here but I think he is right. D3.7 talks of lowered B#s then specfically states it breaks on a 12.
A9.7 talks of B#s then says they break on a roll>= the B#. Why the difference? I would postualte that the only reason for the difference is they are different.

In my opinion, D3.7 needs errata to bring it into line.

Of course we all know the MA breaks on an 11 with a B11 but that is not what the rules say.

 

[Houtje]

Again, the 'such' is left out of the relevant quote. D3.7 does not say what you underlined, viz. "ordnance malfunctions on an Original To Hit DR of 12", it says "SUCH ordnance malfunctions on an Original To Hit DR of 12". The 'such' indicates a sub-section of ordnance, viz. that for which "a B# of 12 is inherently assumed".

 

[clubby]

It does break on 12. It also might break on something besides 12.