Could someone please explain the current state of D&D

Dr Zaius

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Could someone please take a moment and explain the current state of D&D for those who may be a little rusty. There was the original D&D boxed set, then there was AD&D, but now I'm seeing a multitude of new and apparently updated D&D material. Is AD&D no more? What is d20?
 

Palantir

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It's a mess and a money grabbing scheme.

Everything before "AD&D 3.5" is "unoffical" so now you have to have everything marked "3.5" to be current...

AD&D finally took "advantage" of the best from the other systems (Like Rolemaster etc) perverted them (mostly) and made AD&D 3.5. Other smaller companies seeing the demise/shrinking (or destruction) of the other RPG systems jumped on the AD&D bandwagon & made "D20" add-ons. D20 is the way AD&D uses dice based on rolling a 20 sided die = D20. If it says D20 you can use it in the AD&D system.

AD&D is the "CORE" and very much alive, everything marked D20, from a dozen or more companies, can be incorporated into any AD&D setting (basically).

A keyword you used was "updated" you bet- updated to the "official version" so the 3.0 stuff you just bought a few years ago (that was the "official" version then) is now "old."

I've said before that I was there at the beginning of "D&D" even attending a "seminar" where Gary Gygax was trying to explain what "D&D" was & get people to buy "his" weird little white boxed non-wargame. I loved it! But it has slowly gone from "let your imagination go & run your own world" to "do it this way or get out" mentality.

The first indication that things were changing was the shift from D&D to AD&D. That was a nice shift but those wild & incredibily "free-wheeling" days were gone, now their "suggestions" had become hard & fast rules. They set down "how it was going to be," I supposed to help "new" players who didn't know or care how to run there own way/worlds.

As an "old-timer" I actually resented that they were telling me how I was supposed to run my world and that I had to "re-buy" D&D or I was playing it all wrong. Then you have new version after new version coming out with the last one you had being the "wrong one again."

I'm sure they say that it's just to improve/enhance the game & make it the same for everyone & easier to understand. But it's rules, rules, rules everywhere. Hey, for some that must be great!

Now on the other hand- I'm sure new RPG gamers like that there's a rule now for everything & I mean everything. I should know some of my boys liked playing in my RPG version & world (now in it's 28th year) and wanted to run their own so they bought the new 3.5 AD&D. (I told them mine was put together by me was a modified D100/D20 RM/AD&D system & to "in my head" for them to use). Yeech, but for them it was all there in black & white even telling them HOW a Ranger thinks and should act. It also helps that their friends can buy the 3.5 stuff and all be on the "same" page.

The new D20 ad-on's are great to see coming along and some are very good. I have some of them that I've "perverted" into my own little system & world. Roleplaying is a great way to get together with friends and have fun (my players are currently on a demon plane looking for a way OUT!). But I think AD&D has become too complicated & rules focused. But if you say. "this is the way it is" you can convince players that they need those books to play AD&D the "right way."
 
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Hertston

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The only thing anyone needs to know about AD&D is that "other role-playing games are also available". ;)

I'm hard pushed to think of one that isn't better.
 

Aries

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My take on it.

In the beginning there was Chainmail, funny notion for table top miniatures.

Then it became Dungeons and Dragons, basically a few rough looking little booklets. Stuff for beginners advanced and masters.

Then came the first hard cover tomes, and the beast was truely alive.

It became 1st edition, and the game was actually starting to really take off. It looked polished, and not just a mishmash of ideas. About this time, the religious crowd started to fret over the demon worshipping satanists :)

2nd edition was the whole game revamped, clarified and nice new manuals.
This was the first great grab for the cash edition. Manuals for everything possible. Over specialization just so you could print a book about it. Modules for settings aplenty, game worlds aplenty, because more worlds meant more settings which required more modules.

To be honest, 2nd edition was not bad if you meant the Players and DM's manuals, after that it was all the shameless marketing of fluff that pissed me off.

They also did the return to the beginning manual which I think for the veterans was a nice memory lane tome than a practical game manual. I wouldn't mind a copy of the Rules Cyclopedia just for that reason.

I think though, D&D3 has gone toooooooo far. Not to mention they did D&D3 and in a great scam, re released it as D&D3.5. Talk about having your wallet gang raped eh. Bend over and give us your money bitch.

If they had not given out the d20 licence, so that every friggin yahoo under creation could now pretend they were Gygax, it might not have been so bad.
But they staked out the game, stripped it bare with this dumb d20 licence notion, and invited every bored doofus to come have have a go at the ole gal call Dungeons and Dragons.

I've seen the manuals, redundant tripe in most cases. A bloody goblin is a bloody goblin. There's only so many ways to create a sword wielding lunatic. And magic is only able to do so many tricks before the only thing magical, is you came up with a fresh sounding name for "fireball".

A good rolegame requires only a few elements to work.

1. You need an imagination, and don't expect it to work while drunk :)
2. You need a set of them funny dice.
3. Paper and pencil, and an ability to print legible. This assumes you can write, and no, it's not school. I tell my players, if I can't read it, I don't give a shyt what you thought it was, it doesn't count if I can't read it properly.
4. Actual demonstratable capacity to distinguish the difference between roleplaying and rollplaying. Rollplaying is what table top miniatures is for.
5. 4-5 players that can understand, if the group agrees to meet on say sat evening, missing numerous sessions is the same as saying I can't continue, and you are replaced.
6. At least 1 female is a major perk. Might not be possible, but, I'd rather not hang out sat night with 4-5 guys that can't even find one single interested female.
7. Notice how I have yet to mention the books yet? Roleplaying is mostly about realising, that an imaginary person is basically 6 numbers defining their nature. Commonly this is strength, dexterity, constitution, intelligence, wisdom, charisma. It's not a shock that damned near every game ever made uses those terms. It's what works. Think of hexes and turns and you get the idea :)

A paper person can be extrapolated in a million ways from those 6 numbers. The only real reason for the books, is to make money actually. They're just products eh. If you have mastered the reality, that anything and everything a paper person can ever want to do, is derived from those 6 numbers, then you can see you don't really need the books.

I've got a sword, can I hit the goblin?
Ok roll your strength. You passed, you hit the goblin.
Did I hurt the goblin?
Roll your strength, you passed, it hurt the goblin.
The goblin just tried to hit you.
Roll your dexterity to avoid being hit by the goblin. You passed, it didn't hit you.
That goblin looks like it is trying to tell you something.
Roll your intelligence. You passed, it seems to have said, it is running from a band of nastier goblins.
That might be true. Roll your wisdom.
You passed, that is one tricky goblin, it's a ruse.

Those 6 stats rule every last aspect of rolegaming. The books are only about ad naseum magnitudes of nit picking detail fudging for the most part.

I have a character I am currently playing. In the process of rolling my dice to get my 6 stats I was totally on fire with luck. I had two 18s, normally one is a gift from the game gods :) I have mostly awesome stats.
I made an elf ranger. In the process of designing my D&D3.5 elven ranger, I ended up with a 20 for Dexterity. I thought, awesome he's nearly untouchable.
I made him a super archer. I figure as he's an archer, why worry about strength, so I only used a 16 on it, and not an 18.
I thought, he's a ranger, I put a 9 in his intelligence and not my second spare 18.
Yeah I could have had a total tank that was unhitable and great with a bow. But I wanted him to be "fun", so I gave the 18 to his charisma. A rollgamer would think I was crazy.
So far, 6 sessions in, and I used the 18 charisma once to get a nice price for some loot. I could have likely used the doubled skill points I guess. And being able to get the extra damage from an 18 strength might have been nice. But I don't rollgame, I rolegame.

Alas, 3.5 is all about power gaming. By 3 level, a PC schmuck fighter today could likely beat the snot out of a 10th level 1st edition barbarian. It's all about managing the stats, maxing out the feats and picking the right route to getting an uber PC killing machine. It takes a skilled DM to keep on top of this stuff, and keep the game about ROLEplaying now.

As for the supplements, you have to be very careful. Some of them are abominable examples of non existent proof reading. Some of them are just very redundant examples of schlock.

Good players, and a clever DM, is what makes good rolegaming. And with good players, and a clever DM, you can have as good a game, without the books, as someone that has em all.
 
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Palantir

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Well said Leslie, not hard to pick out a veteran D&D'er. :)

The keys to a good "roleplaying" world are:

1. Having players that want to get in & play their characters: not playing from a 2006 perspective. Plus they realize a real paper/pencil RPG is not the same as playing Diablo II or WOW.

2. A DM that will personalize his world around his player characters: (make the world involve them with personal issues- rebuilding the orphanage they "came from" / building a villa-keep & quests-your parents home town is under attack).

3. Good imagination- Showing them a drawing of the creature they're fighting while using miniature goblins & dwarves to represent them.

BTW- I prefer the D100 system, 100 differences instead of just "20."
 
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Palantir

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Leslie, are you getting the feeling that we're the last 2 "original" D&D players? :cry:

The rest of you guys reading these posts must have a comment. :D
Come-on let's hear from you even if it's just to say, "I play." :thumup:

You've got at least 2 old-timers here to chat with. :halo:

Pull up a chair by the fire, you'll find Leslie & myself sharing a pitcher :toast: and old campaign'er stories. :eek:gre: :nofear:
 
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Double Deuce

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Sadly I no longer play (no time and live in the mddle of nowhere). :cry:

When I did play I used to DM with a custom system using AD&D, Rolemaster and Harn.
 

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I play from time to time, although my bro in law and I worked out a pimped-up version of twillight 2000, and a ancient/medieval adapatation that we dubbed "twillight 200", which makes AD&D feel like a gimmicky arcade game. Wait a minute... what did I just say? With TW2000 wound and infection rules, it makes for great historical roleplaying, but probably not so good fantasy gaming I must admit.

There is a truckload of v3.5 books out there, my son own an indencent amount of them. Many are very nice looking and more than I expected have nice stuff into them. I feel like a real curmogene though when I point out to my son that I played for 15 years with the 1st ed DMG, the 2nd Ed. PHB and the two 1st Ed Monster manual and didn't get bored (yep son, up the hill both ways, 20 miles in 6 ft of snow...).

I am all with many of you here, its hard to remember the roleplaying part with such a technically detailed resolution system (the rigid grid-based combat system really kills the roleplaying I find.).

Cheers,
 
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Aries

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Warning Warning Warning !!!

Intensely self confident outright arrogant statement follows.

The one setting I would love to DM for, but sadly just can't seem to, because of gross inadequacy of the players, is modern.

Now, to be sure, every :censored: friend of mine can talk the talk :)
But, hmm, I AM the only REAL ex military friend in my usual group for the most part. I have one friend that creatively used his time in the militia, to have all the fun, none of the work, of being in the real thing. He spent all his summers driving support vehicles around the big league maneuvers. He's seen more action than most long time serving military personel hehe.

But it's not just the gungho army stuff, it's also identifiable and credible evidence, that they have ever spent any real time in a science text book. Sadly, I am weird , I would rather read a science book or National Geographic than Playboy or Sports Illustrated.
My friends unfortunately while good at talking the talk, clearly can't walk the walk. I've tried rolegaming real science into the game, they just end up looking at me with confused expressions :)

For example. I took the group on a joy ride once. They had encountered this loooooong buried space ship on Titan. They climbed inside it eventually. I had comically woven in a lot of obnoxious religious material into the plot too. You see, the space craft belonged to Christ :)
Well I whisk them off to you guessed it the constellation Pisces (the fish hehe) which was, you guessed it, "heaven" where Christ was from. They meet god of course, and the entire planet is annoyingly non violent, peaceful folk with incredible psychic powers to keep it non violent and peaceful. This eventually dulled them to tears and they left back on the spaceship.

Trouble was, the ship had brought them there on auto pilot. It was intended to bring home Christ. No one thus, had a clue how to fly it home. Needless to say, none of the group had also taken into account, the effects of flying linear at incredible speeds to boot. Sooo after doing some creative math, and after the pilot wannabe manages to NOT slam the ship into the moon at near light speed :) I inform the group of the nearly dead silence of all forms of modern electronic communications. There's no identifiable signs of modern technology coming from earth as well. Then I tell them, oh by the way, there's a great deal of ice on the planet currently.

Took a while to explain to them the science of time dilation hehe. The world they left was no longer there. Gone quite a long time ago.

That was just one funny example though.

I have found, that most guys can't handle the basics of modern applied science much. You guys on the forums can consider yourself NOT the norm. The discussions I am used to, are sadly lacking in actual real capacity.

Which is why, I basically play in fantasy settings, on alternate worlds, where science is really not so important. You get to ignore a lot of things, and make up a lot of things, and the gang isn't constantly over their head.
 

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We played "Modern" for a while in a 1980's WWIII setting. The d20 system lead to D&D with guns, unfortunately. This is why we went back to Twillight 2000, where it does make sense to play as a team instead of as a bunch of heroes coninciding at the same time and place. Using google earth for maps, it ws nice.

Introducing elements of modern physics to a campaing isn't sure go go over too well, especially if the evening involve props such as beercans. :yummy:
 

freightshaker

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Kerry and Les, you guys hit it right on the money, pardon the pun :).

I also started playing with original D&D, Keep on the Borderlands is still one of my favorites. I moved on to AD&D and enjoyed that since in MY campaign world the DM still arbitrated the rules and since I developed my world from about 10 other sources (pre Greyhawk) there wasn't any basis for argument. Anything that came after AD&D was just the start down the slippery slope. Now with 3.5, AD&D has become a wargame and although I've been a wargamer from before I was a roleplayer I don't like the two intermixed. 3.5 has a modifier for everything and a die roll incorporated into every little action. Any judgement from the DM has been completely given up in favor of a rule book and thus the proliferation of rules lawyers.

Character development has taken a downfall also. Now you can be a Dwarven Thief/Cleric/Fighter/M-U/Druid/Sorceror/Ranger. It seems that MMORPG's have infiltrated P&P roleplaying and everyone thinks they should be able to do everything. I did like the kits that came out with 2nd edition but at least they kept some class resrtictions. My God, M-U's can cast spells while in armor!!!

I still have all my AD&D books and practically everything 2nd edition in PDF. I've played 2nd Ed recently (after a 15 yrs absence) and I enjoyed that very much. Of course our DM let himself do the stroy telling and not a rulebook.
 

griffitz62

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Ok, I'll jump in as well. I started playing way back when. If I remember correctly, the first thing was the basic set and it was a blue book and included an advernture module as well. I wish I could recall the name of the module, but it was fun. It had a Magic Mouth spell near the beginning of the dungeon, but that's all I can think of right now.:hmmm:
I moved on to AD&D and then I played a lot of 2nd Edition which I really enjoyed. Still have most of the 2nd edition stuff. Grabbed the 3.0 Player's Guide, but it just didn't stick. Then when 3.5 came out I said enough already. It just seemed too much like a ploy to get more money. Meanwhile, I moved on to Earthdawn, which I absolutley love, for my fanatasy roleplaying game.
I am definitely of the ROLEplaying variety. I play wargames so I get plenty of dice rolling in my life. I remember fondly a Human Bard that I determined was about 18 years old and so I gave him a low Wisdom score (a 7 I think) and he always acted rashly and felt he was invincible (think any teenager you may know). A lot of fun to play but the party was always bailing him out. I also agree with Aries about having female players. A great asset to any gaming group. Women approach problems differently than men and it's cool to see everyone working things out like that.
 

Dr Zaius

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I'm reading through the 3.5 rules now. I'll say one thing: the production values of the whole system have improved dramatically since I last played.
 

Wik

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Played D&D since the blue book version, had most of the basic sets, played D&D and Top Secret in elementary school, started playing GURPS in middle school. Really enjoyed AD&D 1st edition, initially liked (then shortly hated) 2nd edition. Played lots of Call of Cthulhu, some Rifts. Tried Everway, but noone really liked it.

Currently running a 3.5 game, running people through The World's Largest Dungeon while our regular DM takes a break (he's been running a persistant world for about 5 years, sometimes he takes a break to further storylines.) I enjoy 3.5 as it streamlines a lot of the roll-playing, but it continues the stats-mongering. I like the idea of the System Reference Document and having an open game system, but as Aries said, this has lead to a glut of mediocre game materials being released.

Where was I going with this?

Ah - the best modern campaign I ever ran was with GURPS: The Prisoner.

In college, we were gaming very regularly, but not everyone could meet at all times due to exams/homework/etc. So I started everyone out in a fairly bland modern setting, and quickly had them all abducted and brought to the Village. I would then roleplay at odd times with whoever was around, with a lot of one-on-one or small groups. One of the PCs was on my side. I was lucky that noone had seen The Prisoner, so there were no preconceptions regarding that. Spent most of a year turning the PCs against each other. Some of the PCs didn't want to leave, it was great.

- Chad
 

Aries

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My god, someone else mentioned the World's Largest Dungeon.

Was just going to mention it. Buddy bought this 100 dollar mega money grab. In truth, it's likely a fun item, but gawd, I'd rather just use a minor program for random dungeon mapping, and make the stuff up on my own.

Maybe my being a writer at heart, and a person of too much imagination is simply not all that common.

I have the Alternity design as my game of choice. I have crafted of my own creation, a full bore fantasy setting cliche swords and sorcery variant off of it. Really, all I had to do, was rebuild the 4 professions, and make the FX system NOT just some weirdness of an alien planet.
Two only books is a major perk.

But I like how the design is very easy to run. Everything is based off an action check, and the action check is given a difficulty rating. You get 3 levels of success, and that's about it. You either fail or succeed. You can possibly fail in a messy way, but you can also roll the "1" that gives the DM the ability to ham up how fricking awesome your success was too.

Professions, only 4. Fighting type, rogue type, cleric type or magic type. Or as the modern variant fighting type, free agent type, diplomat type, or technician type. No requirement to go into nauseating sub variants.
You tell the player, the skills you choose will define you.
 

Maedhros

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Hertston said:
The only thing anyone needs to know about AD&D is that "other role-playing games are also available". ;)

I'm hard pushed to think of one that isn't better.
I'm a FUDGE GM, myself...
 

Whizbang1963

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If you don't modify the system and add to it to suit your taste and style...well why bother? It's my imagination, my world, my campaign...If I want to add skillsets or wound and infection or tons of other stuff why not?

It's not like there is a professional league of players where I can get paid to play professionally is there?
 
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Don Maddox said:
Could someone please take a moment and explain the current state of D&D for those who may be a little rusty. There was the original D&D boxed set, then there was AD&D, but now I'm seeing a multitude of new and apparently updated D&D material. Is AD&D no more? What is d20?
I'm not an expert on the old days but D&D coexisted in some incarnations along with AD&D. I believe it faded away while AD&D coasted in its later iteration (2ed).

Wizards of the Coast bought TSR and breathed life into RPGs with version 3.0. (Prepare for 'curse-the-evil-big-bad-nasty-WotC' bashing to begin). Their first attempt brought life and criticism in some areas. They tried to address these with 3.5.

d20 is an attempt to short circuit the copyright wars that TSR was fighting. The basic d20 roleplaying mechanics can be used freely by anyone (more or less) and only WotC produced stuff is copyright.

I really wish people would stop bashing companies for putting out products that gamers want and calling it a 'cash grab'. TSR or WotC put out a hundred little supplements IF PEOPLE ARE BUYING THEM. No one will force you to buy the paladin's handbook. Stop blaming the producers, consumers drive them with their dollars.
 

Aries

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"consumers drive them with their dollars"

That is usually true, but not always. I have seen businesses come, and fold up and die simply because the owners were idiots and nothing else.

It is only required of a person, that they have cash to waste, to create a product. But, the owner doesn't automatically have any real wisdom.

Publishers don't necessarily have any idea of whether a product has any worth either. But, if one has enough persuasion, you can get something published.

Although, usually the consumer being foolish enough to mindlessly buy anything with a logo, is the reason for why a lot of items sell.
 
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Aries said:
"consumers drive them with their dollars"

That is usually true, but not always. I have seen businesses come, and fold up and die simply because the owners were idiots and nothing else.

It is only required of a person, that they have cash to waste, to create a product. But, the owner doesn't automatically have any real wisdom.

Publishers don't necessarily have any idea of whether a product has any worth either. But, if one has enough persuasion, you can get something published.

Although, usually the consumer being foolish enough to mindlessly buy anything with a logo, is the reason for why a lot of items sell.
EXACTLY! TSR/WotC/?? never bent anyone over..."foolish" consumers with "cash to waste" opened their wallets (or dropped their drawers per the previous analogy).

Don't bash a producer for obligingly parting a fool and his money. Too many threads end this way and I'm sick of it.

Back to others for enlightening Don of the current state of D&D...
 
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