Combat Mission: Normandy, continued

[Elvis]

IIRC a gamey expoit of the remounting function is bailing a crew, hiding them, after opponents units have passed, remount and you have a unit in the rear.

I haven't had anyone do that to me yet. I would be pretty suspicious if I rolled past a previously unspotted T90 that was empty so I'm not sure how good of tactic. I suppose it would depend on the who you're playing.

I don't think you can target abandonned AFVs to make sure they are out of action.

Yes, you can fire at abandoned and knocked out vehicles.

 

[thewood]

Are you sure...I just tested knocking out a BMP, and once the crew left the area, I was unable to target it except some area fire.

I played hot seat to double check.

btw, in large armor battles there are all kinds abandoned AFVs laying around. There is no way to tell what caused them to be abandoned.

 

[Elvis]

Are you sure...I just tested knocking out a BMP, and once the crew left the area, I was unable to target it except some area fire.

I played hot seat to double check.

This screen shot I bailed out the crew of the vehicle (they are the unit you can see in the left hand portion of the screen shot) and brought up a Leopard with a short and narrow target arc until I got near and took this shot of the Leopard targeting the thing.

 

[Elvis]

btw, in large armor battles there are all kinds abandoned AFVs laying around. There is no way to tell what caused them to be abandoned.

Amen, that is what happened to me in the PBEM I mentioned. I thought for sure I had knocked out vehicles when all I actually did was force them to bail out.

Thinking about the screen shot above that is a bailed out AFV not one that jumped ship under fire. I don't think there is a difference but the circumstances are different. Forcing a situation to make a crew bail out because of fire is harder to set up but if a vehicle that has voluntarily bailed out can be fired on but one that bailed under fire can't be would be a bug in my opinion. There should be no difference. Do you know an easy to recreate an involuntary bailout without killing a vehicle?

 

[thewood]

OK, just did some quick testing with poor quality crews.

If the tank crew bails on player command, the AFV is treated like normal enemy unit.

If it bails under fire or is knocked out, you can't target it.

I remember that is what I did to the AI in one game. My crew bailed of an immobilized tank with a crew casualty. 15 minutes later, I re-entered it and shot up a couple HQ units.

To get the bail out, I set up a bunch of poor quality T-55's and shot at them with a warrior. Eventually, enough damage is caused to bail.

 

[Elvis]

OK, just did some quick testing with poor quality crews.

If the tank crew bails on player command, the AFV is treated like normal enemy unit.

If it bails under fire or is knocked out, you can't target it.

I remember that is what I did to the AI in one game. My crew bailed of an immobilized tank with a crew casualty. 15 minutes later, I re-entered it and shot up a couple HQ units.

To get the bail out, I set up a bunch of poor quality T-55's and shot at them with a warrior. Eventually, enough damage is caused to bail.

Thanks. I'll try to recreate it tonight when I get a minute but for now I am gonna assume that you saw what you saw and post it as a bug. In CMSF a knocked out vehicle in a campaign is finished for the campaign regardless of whether or not it burns, I'm not sure if an abandoned vehicle moves forward in a campaign but it is certainly available for the balance of that battle and should be subject to direct fire (area fire is probably a decent work around but shouldn't be nessesary in my opinion).

 

[Elvis]

HHmmmm.......Maybe I will work on recreating it before posting it as a bug. I was able to target a knocked out vehicle (easiest scenario to replicate).

 

[thewood]

OK, did some more detailed testing. The first turn after the crew bails, it seems the AFV goes to "dismounted". Within a turn, the vehicle goes to knocked out. What I haven't done yet is see if the AFV ever becomes just abandoned and is remountable.

One thing that almost always gives a bail out is if an HQ unit is destroyed. One thing is funny, no matter how low I make the quality, I have yet to have an HQ unit bail out on its own.

I have never been able to target an AFV that has a knocked out status.

 

[thewood]

Looking at your screenshot made me go back and check something. I always target the icon. I never target the vehicle. So I went back and checked by targetting the AFV itself. Sure enough, I can target it. I assumed if the icon wasn't there, it couldn't be targetted. Sorry for all the extra work.

From now on, I will plug vehicles as I drive by them.

 

[Elvis]

Looking at your screenshot made me go back and check something. I always target the icon. I never target the vehicle. So I went back and checked by targetting the AFV itself. Sure enough, I can target it. I assumed if the icon wasn't there, it couldn't be targetted. Sorry for all the extra work.

No worries.

From now on, I will plug vehicles as I drive by them

Hee hee. I love that.


EDIT: Because I am close to worthless using the editor and was having a ***** of a time trying to set up a test for making a vehicle abandon because of fire. Damn will I be happy when everyone is using the cherry picking editor/QB again. That I could have done in seconds.

 

[thewood]

That is still my biggest frustration...BFC was absolutely idiotic thinking this system was in any way what their customers wanted. I can scream sometimes trying to use it. I still can't believe that they are moving on without doing something about it.

 

[Jeph]

Are you sure...I just tested knocking out a BMP, and once the crew left the area, I was unable to target it except some area fire.

I played hot seat to double check.

btw, in large armor battles there are all kinds abandoned AFVs laying around. There is no way to tell what caused them to be abandoned.

Yes I think this is right. A forced bail-out is actually counted as a kill, the vehicle will show "dismounted", but in reality I think it is supposed to be "abandoned and disabled by crew"

A voluntary bail-out also shows dismounted but the vehicle is re-crewable. Obviously if they are only stepping out for a cup of tea they don't disable the tank.

That's the way I thought it worked, and although you can trace a target line to a dead AFV, I don't think it "sticks" and the TacAI won't target it automatically.

 

[thewood]

I have been able to recrew forced bail out AFVs I think. I'll have to check.

 

[Elvis]

I have been able to recrew forced bail out AFVs I think. I'll have to check.

I have many times and as I said..recently it was done to me 3 times in one PBEM.

 

[Mad Russian]

How can they have time to disable a tank if they bail out?

Tanks are disabled by their crews when they have time to exhaust all options. Not in the heat of battle.

Good Hunting.

MR

 

[dalem]

How can they have time to disable a tank if they bail out?

Tanks are disabled by their crews when they have time to exhaust all options. Not in the heat of battle.

Good Hunting.

MR

Can't you just leave a grenade behind?

-dale

 

[Mad Russian]

If your tank has just been hit and there is smoke inside, you or your crew or both are wounded, and you need to get out of the tank before it may blowup with you inside, are you going to take the time to locate and arm a grenade before you leave? Possibly with some of your crewmen still inside?

I'm not, and I've never seen any accounts of any crew from any nation, that destroyed their vehicle from the inside. They were always already outside the vehicle when the decision was made.

The idea is not to destroy your vehicle at the first possible sign of trouble but to keep it in the fight as long as possible. You're not in a position to make those kinds of decisions as you bail out.

Good Hunting.

MR

 

[Elvis]

If your tank has just been hit and there is smoke inside, you or your crew or both are wounded, and you need to get out of the tank before it may blowup with you inside, are you going to take the time to locate and arm a grenade before you leave? Possibly with some of your crewmen still inside?

I'm not, and I've never seen any accounts of any crew from any nation, that destroyed their vehicle from the inside. They were always already outside the vehicle when the decision was made.

The idea is not to destroy your vehicle at the first possible sign of trouble but to keep it in the fight as long as possible. You're not in a position to make those kinds of decisions as you bail out.

Good Hunting.

MR

I agree. Also, when in a situation like that where you are, in theory, trying to save your arse I would think it would be difficult to know if maybe your vehicle had already been disabled.

 

[dalem]

Good points.

-dale

 

[thewood]

All are just more reasons to plug every vehicle you come across and murder any and all crews.