Cave LOS

[johnl]

I'm about to play my first cave scenario (ASL253 Our Place in the Sun from the new Hollow Legions).

While reading thru G11 I've come across one example that I don't understand.

EX: See the 11.12 illustrations. ... Despite the fact that cave A is at Level 3, its occupants do have a LOS across the Crest Line in hex CC5 to CC4, DD4, DD5, etc.

To me it looks like the LOS to DD4 (level 2) would be blocked by CC5 (level 3) since the BB5 cave is at level 3. What am I missing?

 

[bendizoid]

I'm about to play my first cave scenario (ASL253 Our Place in the Sun from the new Hollow Legions).

While reading thru G11 I've come across one example that I don't understand.



To me it looks like the LOS to DD4 (level 2) would be blocked by CC5 (level 3) since the BB5 cave is at level 3. What am I missing?
View attachment 21650

My guess is hex BB5 is level 4 with a level 3 cave in the side that still gets continuous slope rules.

 

[Pte Parts]

Don't forget to put caves in wadis as these are the main avenues up the hill for the attacking Eritreans.

 

[Doug Leslie]

I'm about to play my first cave scenario (ASL253 Our Place in the Sun from the new Hollow Legions).

While reading thru G11 I've come across one example that I don't understand.



To me it looks like the LOS to DD4 (level 2) would be blocked by CC5 (level 3) since the BB5 cave is at level 3. What am I missing?
View attachment 21650

The key is the highlighted part below.

11.5 LOS: LOS to/from a cave is traced to/from the cave hex's center dot and the cave's level, but can exist only if traced entirely within that cave's CA (exclusive of its CA Hexside vertices only if the cave is IN a Depression; see B19.51). Hence no LOS exists between different caves in the same hex, nor between the Aerial and cave Location(s) of the same hex, nor between a cave and the above-ground Base-Level Location of its new-Depression hex. Barring other LOS obstructions, LOS may be traced within the CA of a cave in a non-Depression hex to/from an elevation lower than the cave's if its Entrance Hex contains no terrain (including a Crest Line) whose obstacle height along that LOS is > that cave's level. No LOS ever exists to/from a Cave Complex, but always exists between units in the same Complex. If a cave's CA Hexside is also a cliff hexside, no LOS exists between that cave and a Climbing unit at a vertex of that CA Hexside and at a different level than that cave.

In effect, the entrance hex is disregarded for LOS purposes to lower level units barring other LOS obstructions. So, in the diagram, the entrance hex (CC5) contains no LOS obstructions. The cave accordingly has LOS to every hex in its CA apart from the two blind hexes created by the cliff at DD4/EE4 (ie EE4 and FF3)

 

[bendizoid]

The key is the highlighted part below.

11.5 LOS: LOS to/from a cave is traced to/from the cave hex's center dot and the cave's level, but can exist only if traced entirely within that cave's CA (exclusive of its CA Hexside vertices only if the cave is IN a Depression; see B19.51). Hence no LOS exists between different caves in the same hex, nor between the Aerial and cave Location(s) of the same hex, nor between a cave and the above-ground Base-Level Location of its new-Depression hex. Barring other LOS obstructions, LOS may be traced within the CA of a cave in a non-Depression hex to/from an elevation lower than the cave's if its Entrance Hex contains no terrain (including a Crest Line) whose obstacle height along that LOS is > that cave's level. No LOS ever exists to/from a Cave Complex, but always exists between units in the same Complex. If a cave's CA Hexside is also a cliff hexside, no LOS exists between that cave and a Climbing unit at a vertex of that CA Hexside and at a different level than that cave.

In effect, the entrance hex is disregarded for LOS purposes to lower level units barring other LOS obstructions. So, in the diagram, the entrance hex (CC5) contains no LOS obstructions. The cave accordingly has LOS to every hex in its CA apart from apart from the two blind hexes created by the cliff at DD4/EE4 (ie EE4 and FF3)

This is why I quit reading when I got to caves. To me it’s unintelligible and my strange ASL dyslexia kicks in. I have no desire to spend three hours reading one sentence of confusing double/triple speak. Just say’in, but thank you for trying to break it down.

 

[Actionjick]

This is why I quit reading when I got to caves. To me it’s unintelligible and my strange ASL dyslexia kicks in. I have no desire to spend three hours reading one sentence of confusing double/triple speak. Just say’in, but thank you for trying to break it down.

Bob that was the point for us also when we said this is getting too complicated for having fun with. Just us. For those who grok Caves my heartiest congratulations.

 

[Doug Leslie]

This is why I quit reading when I got to caves. To me it’s unintelligible and my strange ASL dyslexia kicks in. I have no desire to spend three hours reading one sentence of confusing double/triple speak. Just say’in, but thank you for trying to break it down.

The rules are certainly complicated but cave scenarios can be among the most intense ASL experiences, so I think that it is worth persevering. I found these articles to be very helpful in increasing understanding of them.

1. “Spelunking 101: Tips on Cave and Cave Complex Setups.” ASL Annual 96.
2. https://www.jrvdev.com/ROAR/Articles/Three Rules to a Better Cave Game.pdf
3. "Assaulting a Cave Complex" by JR Tracy in Journal number two

 

[bendizoid]

The rules are certainly complicated but cave scenarios can be among the most intense ASL experiences, so I think that it is worth persevering. I found these articles to be very helpful in increasing understanding of them.

1. “Spelunking 101: Tips on Cave and Cave Complex Setups.” ASL Annual 96.
2. https://www.jrvdev.com/ROAR/Articles/Three Rules to a Better Cave Game.pdf
3. "Assaulting a Cave Complex" by JR Tracy in Journal number two

I do like the game Starship Troopers.

 

[Actionjick]

I do like the game Starship Troopers.

I had it and could never find anyone willing to play it. Looked like fun.

 

[Eagle4ty]

Always liked taking on the Skinnies, perhaps because they were so much of a pushover. I was lucky to have a buddy back then that also was into "wargaming" and a good looking sister a year apart from him. He would go on to help start a company called Talonsoft and she went on to be a Playboy Bunny for a bit.

 

[Doug Leslie]

Always liked taking on the Skinnies, perhaps because they were so much of a pushover. I was lucky to have a buddy back then that also was into "wargaming" and a good looking sister a year apart from him. He would go on to help start a company called Talonsoft and she went on to be a Playboy Bunny for a bit.

No sex in the rules and errata forum!

 

[johnl]

The rules are certainly complicated but cave scenarios can be among the most intense ASL experiences, so I think that it is worth persevering. I found these articles to be very helpful in increasing understanding of them.

1. “Spelunking 101: Tips on Cave and Cave Complex Setups.” ASL Annual 96.
2. https://www.jrvdev.com/ROAR/Articles/Three Rules to a Better Cave Game.pdf
3. "Assaulting a Cave Complex" by JR Tracy in Journal number two

Thanks, Doug. I will check these out. I agree with bendizoid that these are the most convoluted, not to mention weird, rules that I've encountered so far. I still don't see the point of saving that a Cave in a level 4 hex is at level 3 if you treat LOS as if it is at level 4.

 

[bendizoid]

Thanks, Doug. I will check these out. I agree with bendizoid that these are the most convoluted, not to mention weird, rules that I've encountered so far. I still don't see the point of saving that a Cave in a level 4 hex is at level 3 if you treat LOS as if it is at level 4.

It’s suppose to be a continuous Slope LOS (ie a line) from top to bottom so any point on that sloped line will be on the LOS. That’s my explanation to help visualize.

On a side note I have played with caves and they are interesting but have bawked at reading the landing craft rules, they look waaaay too scary.

 

[Michael R]

On a side note I have played with caves and they are interesting but have bawked at reading the landing craft rules, they look waaaay too scary.

The LC Destruction chart in the LFT Rat charts helps a lot.

 

[bendizoid]

The LC Destruction chart in the LFT Rat charts helps a lot.

Yeah, nice try, the risk of befuddlement is far too high.

 

[Doug Leslie]

I dream of the day when someone will create a scenario involving a night assault with LC loaded with cavalry and pack mules (G12.12 and 12.122 must exist for a reason) against Japanese in caves surrounded by paddy fields and panjis. That would hit a hundred playings on ROAR in record time.

 

[Actionjick]

I dream of the day when someone will create a scenario involving a night assault with LC loaded with cavalry and pack mules (G12.12 and 12.122 must exist for a reason) against Japanese in caves surrounded by paddy fields and panjis. That would hit a hundred playings on ROAR in record time.

I believe that there is this thing called DYO. It's rather old school but if you are looking for something " different " I suggest you give it a try.

Fish described one of our more outlandish DYOs. Completely ahistorical but fun as hell and we never even saw each other. Night, Deep Snow, Fog. ROTFLMFAO! That's gaming!