Can the Halftrack bypass this hex?

[John Fedoriw]

Hi gents,



If the Halftrack is in S5 can it bypass the R4/S4 hexside to end its MPh at the R3/R4/S4 vertex? Crossing a wall with a Halftrack is NA BUT there is an opening in the wall which looks like a gate. In the real world this would allow it I am pretty sure but I know that doesn't matter in ASL terms.....What say the rules gurus?

Thanks,
John

 

[Wayne]

HT Vehicular Bypass in R4 is NA from S5 to R4/S4. Despite the gap, the R4/S5 hexside is a wall hexside connected to wall hexside R4/S4 -- vertex R4/S4/S5 is not clear for OG Bypass movement from S5 to R4 any more than were there a knot of Woods there, say.

 

[Eagle4ty]

I don't like Wayne's reply (not rule wise but a reality argument-ugh) but I'm inclined to agree with the answer for the reasons stated by him.

 

[Stewart]

Some wall/hedge hexsides such as 6W9-X9 have obvious
gaps in them which can be crossed without paying the wall/hedge MF/MP penalty

Since you are crossing the hexside (abstract) and there is the gap(abstract)...it can be crossed without penalty

Infantry movement would be allowed as well.
You aren't crossing the 2mm right off the vertex.

 

[apbills]

I am not so sure Wayne.
B9.4 is the only place I can find where a gap is discussed.
B9.4 The cost for Infantry/Cavalry to cross a wall/hedge hexside is one MF plus the COT of the hex moved into. The cost for various types of vehicles to cross a wall/hedge is indicated on the Chapter B Terrain Chart. A vehicle failing a Bog Check for crossing a wall/hedge is Bogged in the hex it attempted to leave. Wall/hedge hexsides are never expressed as a COT, but rather as an addition to COT. Therefore, when a unit must pay double its normal MF cost to cross a Crest Line it pays double the COT of the hex plus the one MF for its hexside. Some wall/hedge hexsides such as 6W9-X9 have obvious gaps in them which can be crossed without paying the wall/hedge MF penalty (by using the road if one exists).

The one Q&A I see states:
Q: May a wall/hedge hexside with an "obvious gap" (but no road depiction) be crossed without paying the extra movement cost? May walls/hedges with "obvious gaps" (whether there is a road or not) be crossed by expending the additional movement cost for a wall/hedge if desired?

UA: Yes to both. {4}

Unfortunately, it does not ask anything regarding bypass movement, however, it does not specify infantry or vehicles (so applies to both).

For VBM, D2.3 states in part "Walls/hedges are considered extensions of hexsides for this rule." but that is talking about the hexside along which the vehicle is bypassing (i.e., the width is measured from the inside edge of the wall). this is different than if there were woods along the hexside. If there were woods, the vehicle could still bypass the building, but would need to go through the woods.

So a vehicle can cross the S5/R4 hexside without crossing the wall. What limits the crossing to the vertex, or in this case just inside the wall depiction? Given per D2.3 any wall depiction is treated as an extension of the hexsides the wall is on. Does that mean the partial wall along the S5/R4 hexside is also considered an extension of the hexside and therefore immaterial to the question?

Do you believe infantry can use bypass for the same move? I believe they can, and I believe for the reasons stated a vehicle could do the same. I would agree that if there was any other type of obstacle it would be blocked (or at least you would have to pay to go through the other terrain), but I think it is clear that walls/hedges/bocage are treated differently for bypass movement and legality.

It would have been nice to have the A4.31 example include a variation that has a gap in the D4/D5 wall and tell us what the costs would be.

 

[Wayne]

Not a reality argument. The HT has no direct path across its beginning hex to the building hexside it wishes to Bypass.

No rule allows you to cross the middle of an obstacle hexside, then, short of the obstacle, make a sharp shallow turn so as to Bypass either adjoining hexside.

 

[MajorDomo]

Edit to correct my post, found this Perry sez

B9 4
May a wallhedge hexside with an "obvious gap (but no road depiction) be crossed without paying the extra movement cost? May walls/ /hedges with "obvious gaps (whether there is a road or not) be crossed by expending the additional movement cost for a wall/hedge if desired?

A. Yes to both. f4

 

[apbills]

Not a reality argument. The HT has no direct path across its beginning hex to the building hexside it wishes to Bypass.

No rule allows you to cross the middle of an obstacle hexside, then, short of the obstacle, make a sharp shallow turn so as to Bypass either adjoining hexside.

No rule states you must enter the hex you wish to bypass at the vertex, in fact it is silent on such things. In fact it is clear you don't enter on the hexside if the hexside is a wall, since it does state the wall is just an extension of the hexside.

I think D2.3 "The vehicle is moving around the obstacle within the hex - not through the obstacle. Therefore, the interior of each hexside traversed must be clear of any obstacle depiction to the depth of an edge of a unit counter for VBM to be usable. " makes it clear you are not moving ON the hexside, rather you are moving between the obstacle (building) and the hexside (wall).

How do you determine it has no direct path? Where is it in hex S5? Nothing in the rules indicates where on the hexside you need to cross. Even the B9.4 rule regarding the gap does not limit bypass movement from occurring through that gap. Below is a depiction of VBM from the D2.21 example. those red dots are not on the vertices, they are in the interior of the hex between the woods obstacle and the hexside. I think that is clear in terms of your path through the hex while bypassing the obstacle in the hex. Barring some rule stating how far away from the vertex you need to be in order to cross through the gap, we are left with B9.4 which does not restrict the movement through the gap to just normal movement.

 

[apbills]

Obvious gaps in a wall can only be crossed without penalty if on a road.

There is no road depiction in the above post.

B9.4 - Movement.

that is incorrect.
B9.4 ..."Some wall/hedge hexsides such as 6W9-X9 have obvious gaps in them which can be crossed without paying the wall/hedge MF penalty (by using the road if one exists). "

 

[fanatic+1]

Wayne has it correct. D2.3 provides:
“Therefore, the interior of each hexside traversed must be clear of any obstacle depiction to the depth of an edge of a unit counter for VBM to be usable.“
Hexside R4/S4 is not clear. It has an adjoining wall. A tracked AFV could enter bypass by going over wall, but not a half track.

 

[apbills]

Wayne has it correct. D2.3 provides:
“Therefore, the interior of each hexside traversed must be clear of any obstacle depiction to the depth of an edge of a unit counter for VBM to be usable.“
Hexside R4/S4 is not clear. It has an adjoining wall. A tracked AFV could enter bypass by going over wall, but not a half track.

yet that same rule states "Walls/hedges are considered extensions of hexsides for this rule." which means the wall is just an extension of the hexsides. that takes you back to B9.4 and what the rule allows as far as crossing the hexside, and in this case the gap allows vehicles to enter without crossing the wall.

Note that the purple portion of the rule is discussing whether or not you can even bypass the hexside, it says nothing about entering the actual hex itself. If we follow your logic, bypass is not possible at all, since you are saying R4/S4 is not clear, therefore VBM is not usable across R4/S4. The wall itself is not an obstacle, the building is. Per D2.3 walls are just extensions of the hexsides.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Hexside R4/S4 is not clear.

A bypassing vehicle is in the obstacle hex, not on its hexside.
If there is enough space between the wall and the obstacle, bypass is allowed.

 

[Larry]

Can the ht enter the R4/S4 hexside? No. the ht cannot cross the wall.
Can the ht enter R4 through the gap in the wall? No. the ht cannot enter the building.
Can the ht bypass R4/S5? No. Infantry can't and no rule allows the ht to drift through the opening. The hexside does not have enough space with the stone outhouse in the back.

The answer is no.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Can the ht enter the R4/S4 hexside? No. the ht cannot cross the wall.

No unit ever enters a hexside.

Can the ht enter R4 through the gap in the wall? No. the ht cannot enter the building.

The ht can enter the building using bypass. A bypassing unit is always in the obstacle's Location.

Can the ht bypass R4/S5? No. Infantry can't and no rule allows the ht to drift through the opening. The hexside does not have enough space with the stone outhouse in the back. The answer is no.

R4/S5 is the hexside crossed to enter R4 (btw, you never bypass the hex crossed to enter an obstacle's hex, wall or not).
The ht may cross that hexside, due to the gap, to enter R4.
There is plenty of space between the building in R4 and the wall along the R4/S4 hexside.
The answer is yes.

 

[Larry]

D2.31 clearly states that VBM is not allowed along a hexside already containing another bypass vehicle or wreck along that hexside. Vehicles to traverse the hexside.

The ht cannot enter the building. Being in the same location is not the same as being in the building. Bypass allows entry to the hex or risking bog for movement through those obstacles. D2.3.

 

[Larry]

Probably worth a PS.

 

[apbills]

Based on this discussion "Bypass Q&A" I submitted to MMP an extensive set of questions regarding bypass stuff. I have yet to get a response. Some of the Q&A make no sense to me, including the one Larry has posted which is what generated that previous discussion and Q&A to MMP. Given A4.31 example, the 7-0 leader in that A4.3 Q&A is allowed to bypass R3/R2 and move directly to R2 from that hexside. How the rules prevent the opposite from being done has never been explained, other than that Q&A stating "No" (which is how a Q&A is supposed to be worded, even if that yes/no answer is not very clear).

Another Q&A that baffles me is:

Q: May an Infantry unit bypass a hexside and then return to its prior hex along that hexside?
UA: No; see the A4.31 Example. [VFTT 18 Sep 1998]

Now the above question was not worded very good (based on today's more exacting language), but I have heard 2 different interpretations of the answer. The first assumes the "return to its prior hex along that hexside" also assumes at no cost, i.e., move directly back into the prior hex. The second assumes you could not pay 1MF to bypass back on the hexside and then pay to enter your prior hex. Those interpretations are completely different.

None of this has anything to do with the OP, other than the point that Q&A can be incorrect (and have been changed in the past).

 

[apbills]

I think it is very clear that no unit using bypass is moving ON the hexside. It is clear from D2.3 that a vehicle is moving in the hex, around the obstacle, between that obstacle and the hexside, and for game mechanics moves ALONG hexsides. The D2.3 stipulation that walls/hedges are considered extensions of the hexside makes it clear that you are not actually moving ON that hexside. There is a distinction between ON and ALONG. The previous discussion I linked in my previous post goes into depth on this topic.

 

[Robin Reeve]

D2.31 clearly states that VBM is not allowed along a hexside already containing another bypass vehicle or wreck along that hexside. Vehicles to traverse the hexside.

The ht cannot enter the building. Being in the same location is not the same as being in the building. Bypass allows entry to the hex or risking bog for movement through those obstacles. D2.3.

View attachment 23913

There is no other vehicle nor another weck along the hexside: where do you see another vehicle?
The halftrack may enter the building hex using bypass : it is in the hex, not on the hexside. Your reasoning would prohibit it from using bypass, even without the wall.

 

[fanatic+1]

"The MP cost of VBM is double that of the hex’s non-obstacle terrain (usually Open Ground) per hexside traversed..." D2.3. "A vehicle in Bypass has a different (and much more restrictive) VCA because it is now traversing a hexside rather than a hex." D.2.32.

The question is whether using a break in a wall allows a vehicle to enter through that hexside into bypass along an adjoining hexside or forces the vehicle to enter into the obstacle. Worth a question to Perry.