CA/TCA penalties in AA mode?

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C3.21 CA/TCA penalties in AA mode?

Hello!

Quick Q on AA mode.
Currently playing J61 In the Bag and my nice FB has been ambushed by a FlakPz IV/20. My opponent (hi Albert!) set it up in AA mode, but my FB is out of his TCA.
Does he have to pay case A penalties on his IFT DR when he shoots at me with his IFE?

C3.21 says... " A Gun can fire only at a target within its CA. To fire at a target outside its CA, the unit must first change its CA to bring the target within that new CA."

So I think we're looking for an exception when in AA mode. I just can't find it and wonder if anyone knows where it's hiding?

Cheers

Chris
 
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Jack Dionne

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I don’t have my rulebook here now, but if my memory serves me correctly it would be just like any other MA with an IFE. That means add +2 to your IFT DR for the first hex spine and +1 for each one after that. The vehicle in question does have a thin circle around it I believe.
 

WaterRabbit

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There is not a rule that exempts turreted weapons from paying Case A penalties -- even for AA capable or IFE. I agree with Jack except his numbers are for a ST Turret -- the Wirbelwind has a Fast Traverse turret.

Also remember to reduce the ROF by one for using IFE. ;)
 

Robin Reeve

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You are right : one cannot find any reference to using "Case A" Turret DRM for AA fire in the Light AA fire rules...
But the DRM does apply : if the normal rules (i. e. for firing against groud targets) are not specificaly corrected or altered, they apply.
 

WaterRabbit

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Robin said:
You are right : one cannot find any reference to using "Case A" Turret DRM for AA fire in the Light AA fire rules...
But the DRM does apply : if the normal rules (i. e. for firing against groud targets) are not specificaly corrected or altered, they apply.
If you are quoting me I said "...EXEMPTS...". :D
 

Robin Reeve

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WaterRabbit said:
If you are quoting me I said "...EXEMPTS...". :D
Oh dear Master, I praise the miracle of having expressed in so near words to yours the same truths. :hail: :laugh:
Thus there must dwell a fundamental set of rules under all our speaches, must it not? :cow:
Who can resist the pesuasion of the RuleBook? :surprise:
 

WaterRabbit

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Whatever. Your statement is the exact opposite in meaning of mine. That why I pointed out the word exempt. :rolleyes:
 

Larry

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Although the FlakPz IV/20 has a fast turret, the AFV has a notation of *20L. The MG configuration is 3/-/*. The reverse of the counter indicates MA:AA. Since the counter refers to the MA as the AAMG configuration, does this change the analysis? See D1.83.

It is not just that the gun is AA capable. It is referenced as the AAMG. The question is slightly different than a simple MA designated as AA capable. Otherwise the *'s have no meaning. The 37 FlakPz IV lacks a comparable designation in the AAMG slot, but the FlakPz IV/37 has the same designations as the 20.

If this discussion concerned the 37 FlakPz IV, I would agree. But with the FlakPz IV/37 or the FlakPz IV/20, I have questions. The thread has not addressed the distinction. So what say you now? :confused:
 

Brian W

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Larry said:
Although the FlakPz IV/20 has a fast turret, the AFV has a notation of *20L. The MG configuration is 3/-/*. The reverse of the counter indicates MA:AA. Since the counter refers to the MA as the AAMG configuration, does this change the analysis? See D1.83.
I do not have Chp H handy, but what I believe the astrick refers to is that the CMG is also AA capable, not that the MA is treated as if it had no CA (like an AAMG). The turret was fast, but not that fast.
 

Larry

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That might be true, if the IV/20 had a CMG. According to the VASL version and my hazy recollection of the H entry, it does not. ;)

So there has to be another explanation. :confused:
 

The Purist

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Star light, star bright

The "*" next to the 20L simply tells that it gets 4 TK DRs. The "*" in the AA mg slot tells you it is an MA:AA weapon. Also see the Flakpanzer IV/37. It, too, has a "*" in the AA mg slot but the only applicable note is MA:AA.

Take a look at the M15a1 aaht (US). In this case the "*" is telling you that the cmg is also AA capable alongside the *37L (8) MA (also MA:AA).

See the British MKVI aaLT (vehicle note 59) for an example very much like the 'Wirbelwind'

Almost all the "aa" vehicles have the "*" next to the MA or in a mg slot. These "*" only refer you to the vehicle notes. The turret symbol (FT, ST, 1MT, NT) will tell you your CA change penalties.
 
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Brian W

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Larry said:
That might be true, if the IV/20 had a CMG. According to the VASL version and my hazy recollection of the H entry, it does not. ;)
The VASL counter is wrong. There is a CMG. I am reasonably sure of my explaination (sure enough to take a wager on an answer from perry).

If the vehicle was not intended to have to pay the CA changes, it should not have a white circle on its face.
 

The Purist

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Sorry Brian, but no picture of the 'Wirbelwind' I have seen nor the model I built contains a CMG. It is an open top turreted AFV with a standard "Flakveirling" 20mm mount. There is a BMG just like any other Panzer IV so the counter provided is correct.

You are correct about the TCA change penalties, this vehicle pays fast turret penalties (+1 for first hexside and so on).

See the picture on the scenario S card, "The Whirlwind" (General vol 28, no. 4), for a fairly good view of the front of the vehicle. It's basically a Panzer IV with a quad 20mm mount surrounded by a high 'bathtub' like turret. The BMG is clearly shown on the right front hull position (normal for the PzKw IV).
 
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Larry

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That is all well and good, but it does not explain the * in the AAMG spot. The * next to the gun designation is certainly sufficient to invoke the instruction "turn the counter over or consult chapter H." It is the * in the AAMG spot that is troubling. The explanation of what the *20L means just does not answer the question.

Cf. 37 FlakPz IV; FlakPz IV/37; and FlakPz IV/20. Why do the latter two have * in the AAMG slot (with no AAMG on the AFV) and the first AFV on this list not have the designation.

Still confused.
 

WaterRabbit

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That's not a wager you want to make. Here is what the counter tells us (and rulebook v.2) about the MA.

It is a 20L Gun.
It has an IFE of 20.
It has a 3 ROF.
It has a Fast Traverse Turret.
There is a 5-pointed star next both the Gun and in the AAMG position.
A five pointed star means consult the back of the counter.
Two items on the back of the counter also have a five-pointed star.
1) The MA gets 4 TK DR, which is explained in Note 86. (Errata: The vehicle listing does not have a "dagger" to the right of the 86 note.)
2) The MA has AA capability, which is explained by German Note A and more throughly explained by E7.5 AA Fire.

The MG configuration on this vehicle is 3/-/* (b/c/a).
3 FP BMG.
No CMG.
No AAMG, star refers to German note A.

D1.83 does not apply since there is no AAMG.
E7.5 defines what an AA-Capable weapon is.
E7.51 defines how to use an IFE weapon as Light AA.

The VASL counter is functionally identical to the BV counter and the ASLRB.

So, unless you can find an exemption (which you won't), this vehicle must pay the case A penalty for firing outside its TCA regardless of whether the target is aerial or on the ground. All AA mode does is allow you to fire at an aerial target without taking the ROF hit. If the vehicle did not start in AA mode, its ROF would be 1 for its first shot and 2 thereafter.

Also note E7.5 "An AA-capable weapon's AA mode can be changed at the end of any fire phase (not MPh) in which that weapon can/does change its CA as per the first sentence of C3.22 (even if it is not a Gun)."

There is not an exception, you must pay the +1 penalty / hexspine to fire at this aircraft.
 

The Purist

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The 37 FlaK/Pz IV has no MGs at all and all that the notes tell you is that the MA is AA capable. Note A simply spells out that the MA is AA capable and gives any CMG ,if present, AA capability (just like the US M15a1).

The FlaKPz IV/20 has two 'stars', each refers to a seperate note on the back of the counter. The 'star' next to the 20L MA refers to the 4 TK DR, the 'star' in the aamg slot refers to the MA is AA capable note (MA:AA). Note A, again, applies just as in the case above.

The FlakPz IV/37 is identical to the FlaKPz IV/20, except that it gets only one TK DR and, again, Note A only bestows MA:AA capability.

Now take a look at the PSW 221, 222 and the PSW 234/1 (veh notes 69, 70, and 74). Note A is present here again ('stars') which, as above, bestows MA:AA capabilty. However, this time a CMG is actually present and it, too, is given AA capabilty by Note A.

The BMGs on the Flakpanzers are not effected by Note A, only CMGs are effected. Further the 'star' does not remove TCA penalties it is simply there to remind you to check, first, the back of the counter and then the vehicle notes.

Edit: Oops, there's Water Rabbit saying the same thing.
 
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Robin Reeve

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WaterRabbit said:
There is not a rule that exempts turreted weapons from paying Case A penalties
I thought I said the same (" the DRM does apply "). :confused:
I just pointed out the fact that in the rules of chapter E about AA, there was no specific remark about Case A DRM - but that fact does not EXEMPT (to take your words) Light AA from applying it (as normal rules apply when not adapted).
 

Larry

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Chapter H entry 86. MG array is 3/-/*
Reverse is = * 4 TK DR and *MA:AA
Now, since both * on the reverse refer to the MA, why is there a * in the AAMG space. On other counters, the * on the MG line refers to notes that pertain to the MG array, not to the MA.

While I agree with the conclusions expressed, I am questioning why the * is in the aamg space. Just seems confusing.
 
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Brian W

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The Purist said:
Sorry Brian, but no picture of the 'Wirbelwind' I have seen nor the model I built contains a CMG.
Yes, of course you are right. I confused the bmg with a cmg.
 
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