Battle of the Scheldt

Bdr.Mallette

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What do ya think?

Got all historical Data.
Got all OOBs.
Map done, created first Allied units.

Was thinking, 'Totally historic', or throw some 'possibles' in there (Air drops, no dyke was blown, etc...)?

It is an intriguing battle and I was thinking of having half days, which could amount to 60-90 turns.

Any tips for night fighting or communication levels?

:D
 

Blackcloud6

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I just read about this battle in the book Armegeddon by Max Hastings. He covers it pretty well, more so than many others who wrote on the West Front campaigns. Very interesting fight. I don't play TAOW much anymore but I might bring it back up if you do this one.
 

Bdr.Mallette

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I've started,
hard to stop the ball rolling.
With the sequence of Allied Ops to take this area, should be interesting.

:smoke:

might take awhile.
Would like to put a lot of effort into it.
It is a German, Canadian fight and all, sort of.
Lotsa Brits and some Polish accompany the 1st Canadian Army.
 

Ben Turner

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Bdr.Mallette said:
It is an intriguing battle and I was thinking of having half days, which could amount to 60-90 turns.
Since the battle's not really a particularly famous one, nor is it really very glamorous, I think you should try to keep the number of turns down as far as possible. How many people do you know who'd be willing to spend half a year PBMing through Dutch marshlands?

That said, it's a reasonable idea and I'm not aware of any good work covering it in detail. My only other question would be how much is there going to be for a German player to do in this scenario? Did they have any mobility at all- or was it just a case of the Canadians systematically destroying entrenched units?
 

Boonierat

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Will it cover the Breskens pocket and Walcheren island? should be cool :smoke:
 

Bdr.Mallette

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Ben Turner said:
Since the battle's not really a particularly famous one, nor is it really very glamorous, I think you should try to keep the number of turns down as far as possible. How many people do you know who'd be willing to spend half a year PBMing through Dutch marshlands?

That said, it's a reasonable idea and I'm not aware of any good work covering it in detail. My only other question would be how much is there going to be for a German player to do in this scenario? Did they have any mobility at all- or was it just a case of the Canadians systematically destroying entrenched units?

okay...

:confused:
 
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Ben Turner

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Bdr.Mallette said:
Seriously. Think about the scenarios you play. It's possible you play a lot of long scenarios- but these will be things like Europe Aflame, various Barbarossa scenarios, etc. These are grand scope scenarios which people are really willing to commit to.

Now, the Scheldt battle is interesting, but I can just see players looking at a length of eighty turns and thinking "screw this- I could fight out the whole of Barbarossa in that time" and go play something else. If you make it full instead of half day, people will think "forty turns- that's OK. I'll be done playing it in two months."

This is a genuine consideration. A lot of Poland scenarios are thirty or so full day turns. Playing that 24th September turn really isn't that thrilling. Mine's eight half-week turns.

There's a tendency in scenario design to produce as much as possible. Biggest map, most detailed OOB, longest game. This is a bit of a red herring- the idea is to produce something which is realistic and fun to play. The above might aid those goals- but won't do so in every case, and certainly not for every person. Note in particular that there are all-of-wwii-in-Europe scenarios at divisional scale- but the Corps level one is the most popular.

None of this is to say you must design your scenario a particular way. Obviously I can't dictate these things to you- no-one can. I'm just making suggestions to try to help you make a better scenario. Isn't that what this thread is for?

Now, my other point was about whether a German player in this is going to have anything to do besides watch his units getting bombarded to oblivion one by one. You could, I suppose, make this a vs. German PO only scenario- but that's a major limitation.
 
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Bdr.Mallette

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like the funky new graphics....

yep,
was thinking of how to get the German player more involved.
It is a fairly important battle, Montgomery had overlooked it's importance in the grand scheme of things.
There were figures attached to the delay of opening the ports at Antwerp, some 40,000 tonnes of cargo and equipment.
The lines went all the way back to Normandy so it was an important battle, maybe not in size, but it did have a great affect on the Western front and it's capabilities thereafter.

Anyways,

I wanted to incorporate night fighting into the scenario because it did play an important role in the operations and such.
Seeing as how I have 500 events, and I can only see a possible need for aout 100, I was thinking of going over-board on some of the events.
Such as, since every other turn will be a night turn, I could force some formations to only be able to fight during the daytime by assigning unit orders every other turn. I know there is a better way and I'll find it, I hope.
There could be possible entries of auxillary German units arriving from the northern area that were being pushed out by the Americans and allied forces (% chance that they'll arrive).
Put a penalty on how long the Germans hold out (penalty to the Allied player for total loss of supply to the Western front).
There was a small German flotilla in the area and the weather didn't allow a lot of air cover, at least some of the time.
From what i've read and looked at, it was a very hard fought battle for the entire Area (civilians who watched were stupified by the apalling conditions that the soldiers had to fight in) and it was costing the Allie's overall strength.
Overall, the 2 forces were the same size, Allied forces were supplemented with some Auxillary units, air support and some naval guns to push the assault forward. The Germans were in a situation where all they could do was fight as long and as hard as possible. I think devising a suitable timeline Variable meter could suffice with pressuring both sides to 'Get the Job done'.

It's in the early stages, still finishing OOB.

(I think it's just neat to play with Army men) ....lol


:D
 

Ben Turner

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Bdr.Mallette said:
like the funky new graphics....

yep,
was thinking of how to get the German player more involved.
It is a fairly important battle, Montgomery had overlooked it's importance in the grand scheme of things.
Yes it's important but it's neither glamorous nor spectacularly decisive. A quicker victory means a marginal shift in the course of events, not a sweeping change. So people will be willing to have a go, but if players a doing two turns a week an eighty turn game represents a comittment of more than nine months.

I wanted to incorporate night fighting into the scenario because it did play an important role in the operations and such.
Sometimes this distinction is important- but important enough to justify doubling the scenario's length? Especially as in TOAW night only affects the performance of air units.

Such as, since every other turn will be a night turn, I could force some formations to only be able to fight during the daytime by assigning unit orders every other turn. I know there is a better way and I'll find it, I hope.
Well the idea would be that if units were active day and night for a long period of time they'd exhaust their supplies (since units get much less supply if they moved the previous turn) and become ineffective. TOAW already does this. Units were perfectly capable of fighting during the night- just not when they fought during the day as well.

Put a penalty on how long the Germans hold out (penalty to the Allied player for total loss of supply to the Western front).
Well clearly the two determinants of success are a) the time it takes to clear the estuary and b) Allied losses. Essentially the whole estuary has to be cleared as soon as possible without taking too heavy losses. I'm not completely familiar with the battle- was it a matter of having to clear the whole estuary before Antwerp could be put to use or did advances have an incremental effect on its capacity?

There was a small German flotilla in the area and the weather didn't allow a lot of air cover, at least some of the time.
Well the interaction of air and naval forces in TOAW is problematic as I'm sure you know. What did the flotilla spend its time doing? Make sure that it does that in the scenario- rather than just being a floating artillery battery.

(I think it's just neat to play with Army men) ....lol
It is.
 
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Bdr.Mallette

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Historically?

Hello,

am finally getting to the events......sheeeesh.

Shall I--> Model it after Historical actions

or

Should I --> Enable the Germans to receive a few theater Ops which will enable them to change their strategy from a holding status to a possible, limited counter-offensive towards Antwerp?

I have it so far that a regiment or 2 from surrounding areas have been forced into this melee from being pushed out from previous positions.

I would like to allow the German player to choose 'reinforcements' from northen Holland (still 15th Armee)
to join in the Defense of 'Bergen Op Zoom, or Walcheren or even Brugge'.
If conducted properly, it may allow the Germans a small window of Opportunity to make a fast counter-attack towards antwerp and possibly slow up the over-all Allied advance into central Europe.
(this will be modeled as VP penalties or bonuses)

So far, the Germans are under strength for most of their units
and will have nearly zero air cover.
KG Chill, dreyer and Bolsch are a highly proficient group, with Kampgruppe chill representing the 85th Inf.Div.

I may include HQ bonuses, such as capturing the HQs(destroying) will give a bonus, as well as if German units move forward and capture any hexes farther than they did, they will receive VPs and also small amounts of 'reclaimed eqyuipment' (i.e.- 1 hvyMG, 2 MedMG, 2 trucks etc....)
I was thinking of doing this for a large amount of forward hexes because the Germans will have ZERO replacements and reinforcements.

Allied (Canadian, british and Polish Armour) are not at full strength either (just coming from Normandy) but are in much better condition. They will receive all regular replacements and reinforcements.


Any ideas or suggestions?
 

Ben Turner

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Bdr.Mallette said:
Hello,

am finally getting to the events......sheeeesh.

Shall I--> Model it after Historical actions

or

Should I --> Enable the Germans to receive a few theater Ops which will enable them to change their strategy from a holding status to a possible, limited counter-offensive towards Antwerp?
I think since the German is mainly a passive participant in the scenario, the more choices you can give them the better. Just make sure that a) these choices are ones which were realistically open to the Germans and b) you get a good idea of the consequences of, for example, asking for extra reinforcements.
 

Bdr.Mallette

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tigersqn said:
How about US 104th Inf Div. ?

Hey man,
how's it going?
You've returned......

I still have Operation Roundup.
I did list it as a victory (long wait)but I think I can cancel that. I forget all my battle plans though.

104th, moved father East and moved up to the west of Eindhoven.
(I believe).
The Bulk of the fighting was done by the 1st Canadian Army which had a Polish Armoured Div attached as well as the 52nd British attached (with commando brigade) I believe.
 

Bdr.Mallette

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Ben Turner said:
I think since the German is mainly a passive participant in the scenario, the more choices you can give them the better. Just make sure that a) these choices are ones which were realistically open to the Germans and b) you get a good idea of the consequences of, for example, asking for extra reinforcements.
Yeah, I think so too, just trying to be imaginative with their options.

Will think, play, think then probably realize, I should have included more Territory to the East......

:D
 

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Ben Turner said:
Especially as in TOAW night only affects the performance of air units.
All units are scaled by the "Force Night Combat Proficiency" factor on night turns. The default is 33%. So one side or the other could be given an edge during the night turns.
 

Bdr.Mallette

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cool, thx.
I think the Attacker always has the advantage at night,
so the Allies will receive that extra bonus for sure.
 

tigersqn

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Bdr.Mallette said:
Hey man,
how's it going?
You've returned......

I still have Operation Roundup.
I did list it as a victory (long wait)but I think I can cancel that. I forget all my battle plans though.
Not really back yet; but I do have access to the forums. :D

I expect a return by summer :smoke:
 

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I saw this interesting post,

I have no clue about what the extent of your campaign is(how big it the map?)
Some words about kampfgruppe Chill,

You mention that it should be the 85 infantry division. Do No such thing.
By this time chill commanded a mixture of falsschirmjaeger units(especially the 6 regiment von der Heydte) and tank destroyer units (mainly stug and some jagdpanthers).
There were no troops left over from the 85 inf division.
Chill should not appear near the scheldt well after market garden has closed, so late september or early october. He appeared to plug the hole in the german lines near Bergen op Zoom.

Reinforcements(is not replacements) should not be much forthcomming, except for the 256 VG division and some units of falsschirm jaegers.

No tanks

The 104 US infantry division, the timberwolves, appeared in october and should be allowed somehow to attack at night as that was a sort of speciality of this unit.
 

Bdr.Mallette

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owen36 said:
I saw this interesting post,

I have no clue about what the extent of your campaign is(how big it the map?)
Some words about kampfgruppe Chill,

You mention that it should be the 85 infantry division. Do No such thing.
By this time chill commanded a mixture of falsschirmjaeger units(especially the 6 regiment von der Heydte) and tank destroyer units (mainly stug and some jagdpanthers).
There were no troops left over from the 85 inf division.
Chill should not appear near the scheldt well after market garden has closed, so late september or early october. He appeared to plug the hole in the german lines near Bergen op Zoom.

Reinforcements(is not replacements) should not be much forthcomming, except for the 256 VG division and some units of falsschirm jaegers.

No tanks

The 104 US infantry division, the timberwolves, appeared in october and should be allowed somehow to attack at night as that was a sort of speciality of this unit.
Hey,

thx for info.
I have info that you are correct. KG Chill was the remnants of the 85th DIV, and the only reinforcements are 2 Divs from the 256 VolksGrenadiers with a 3rd remaining at Dunkirk(later to be encircled and destroyed, probably). FJ Reg 6 is involved and represented. KG Chill consists of 2 regs and FJ unit.
All German units are at 65-80% strength(not Prof.) with little or Nil replacements, except for some that will be reclaimed from hexes where battles may take place. Walcheren is really the only area where Axis units are at full strength.

Map isn't big(60x50), haven't decided on turns yet, movement bias, or the likes.
Believe it or not, all the info I have gathered has no US forces participating in this assault. They were pushing the Germans back into Northern Holland. My map only goes as far east as Roosendale and just 10KM to the east of Bergen Op Zoom.
I don't have exact positions for all units involved for the Germans, so I will introduce T.O.s to let the player choose some deployment locales.
Air cover is low, have some tanks and Stugs are present as well.
Tanks are there to mainly balance or at least represent some fighting strength for the German units.
As well, the Canadian units and British units have good armour support (from info gathered) and will benefit from air power, depending on storms (was thinking of limiting actions of Air units thru EVEditor, I think you can do that for Air units. JLBetin had said something about that before.
It's taking me a while to do this one.
Kinda don't wanna Phuc it up cause it's a WWII scenario and there have been some VERY Well designed scenarios. I would at least like to be able to sit somewhere's at the top bench for this one.
I dunno.
( i'm not worthy, I'm not worthy)
 

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Blackcloud6 said:
I just read about this battle in the book Armegeddon by Max Hastings. He covers it pretty well, more so than many others who wrote on the West Front campaigns. Very interesting fight. I don't play TAOW much anymore but I might bring it back up if you do this one.
a good book and a good read
 
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