ATR versus emplaced Gun - C11.52 - how to resolve the fire ?

[MagpieMartin]

Hi again,

Situation : I fired a HS's ATR at a crew AA Gun at range 2 hexes.

I assumed this was legal due to ............
quote .... 13.2 ANTITANK RIFLE (ATR): An ATR is a SW which uses the C3 To Hit Table and the C7.31 AP To Kill Table to resolve its hits

I rolled Snake-eyes.

Does this constitute a Critical Hit ?! Whether or not it does, how is the TK roll calculated ? The RB seems to state that HE Equivalency is used - but I'm beginning to lose direction flipping between C13.23, C11.52, and A9.74

To quote C11.52 ..........
11.52 AP: AP/APCR/APDS/ATR hits vs a Gun are resolved using the same mechanics as HE hits, but using HE Equivalency (8.31). The Gun and any manning Infantry are destroyed by a CH/any K/KIA result. A MG attacking alone, an ATR attack as Small Arms, or an ATR/MG attacking as part of a FG, may cause Gun Destruction only as per A9.74.

Anyone help me ?
Martin

 

[EagleIV]

It depends on the shot you announced. Did you take a 1 FP +2 emplaced DRM shot on the IFT? Or did you announce a TH (probably 8 TH with a +2 emplaced DRM) attempt? If the former you have a NMC on the crew. If the latter you have a CH destroying the gun and crew.

 

[von Marwitz]

Situation : I fired a HS's ATR at a crew AA Gun at range 2 hexes.

You need to formulate your question more precisely, please.

1. Did you target the AA Gun specfically?
2. Or did you use the IFT-equivalent of the ATR (i.e. Small Arms) to attack the crew?

In the first case, you can only do that with an ATR that is specified of having a caliber of 20+mm on the counter (for example Finnish or Japanese ATR), because per C13.24 only 20L (i.e. 20mm) ATR may use the Infantry Target Type HE Equivalency. Only an attack qualifying for HE Equivalency of 2FP or more could achieve a Direct Hit, which per C11.52 could destroy the Gun AND the Crew.

With a 'normal' ATR you cannot target the Gun itself but must attack as Small Arms. If the Gun's crew is killed by this Small Arms fire, then the Gun it possessed might be affected by Random SW Destruction (A9.74). For that you would make a DR on the 2 IFT column, the lowest possible result being 'snakes' for a K/* result. This would malfunction the Gun but is not enough to eliminate it.

von Marwitz

 

[MagpieMartin]

Wow, That's all so clear and concise - thanks so much both of you - that brought it all together so well even I can understand it
As you've probably guessed, I didn't understand enough of the process to start with - at the time, all I was trying to do was target the GUN rather than the crew, as the former's destruction was allied to the Victory Conditions. I just lamely announced a TH attempt and got the snake eyes, which then threw me in a loop.
With your comments above, I can safely go back and edit the logfile - won't my opponent be pleased !
Thanks again to you both
Martin

 

[Ricardo Garcia]

You need to formulate your question more precisely, please.

1. Did you target the AA Gun specfically?
2. Or did you use the IFT-equivalent of the ATR (i.e. Small Arms) to attack the crew?

In the first case, you can only do that with an ATR that is specified of having a caliber of 20+mm on the counter (for example Finnish or Japanese ATR), because per C13.24 only 20L (i.e. 20mm) ATR may use the Infantry Target Type HE Equivalency. Only an attack qualifying for HE Equivalency of 2FP or more could achieve a Direct Hit, which per C11.52 could destroy the Gun AND the Crew.

With a 'normal' ATR you cannot target the Gun itself but must attack as Small Arms. If the Gun's crew is killed by this Small Arms fire, then the Gun it possessed might be affected by Random SW Destruction (A9.74). For that you would make a DR on the 2 IFT column, the lowest possible result being 'snakes' for a K/* result. This would malfunction the Gun but is not enough to eliminate it.

von Marwitz

I think following 13.23, you can do the attack on a gun with a gunshield. I might be wrong, though. In fact I am wrong, and von MarWitz is correct.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I think following 13.23, you can do the attack on a gun with a gunshield. I might be wrong, though. In fact I am wrong, and von MarWitz is correct.

The Gunshield part was removed with ASL Journal 11 errata:
C13.23: line 1, delete “with gunshields”.

Still, only 20L ATR can attack a Gun using the ITT.

 

[Yuri0352]

Hi again,

Situation : I fired a HS's ATR at a crew AA Gun at range 2 hexes.

I assumed this was legal due to ............
quote .... 13.2 ANTITANK RIFLE (ATR): An ATR is a SW which uses the C3 To Hit Table and the C7.31 AP To Kill Table to resolve its hits

I rolled Snake-eyes.

Does this constitute a Critical Hit ?! Whether or not it does, how is the TK roll calculated ? The RB seems to state that HE Equivalency is used - but I'm beginning to lose direction flipping between C13.23, C11.52, and A9.74

To quote C11.52 ..........
11.52 AP: AP/APCR/APDS/ATR hits vs a Gun are resolved using the same mechanics as HE hits, but using HE Equivalency (8.31). The Gun and any manning Infantry are destroyed by a CH/any K/KIA result. A MG attacking alone, an ATR attack as Small Arms, or an ATR/MG attacking as part of a FG, may cause Gun Destruction only as per A9.74.

Anyone help me ?
Martin

Thanks for raising this question, based upon the answers and rules references I played this exact situation incorrectly a few weeks ago with a Russian ATR vs. a 88L Flak gun.

 

[Larry]

If an ATR attacks on the IFT, alone, snakes cowers off the chart unless immune.