Are cellars a subterranean location?

[Pacman Ghost]

From the index:

Subterranean (a separate, underground Location or passage including Caves, Cave Complexes, Culverts, Passages, Sewers, and Tunnels): [Control: G11.94] [IR NA: E1.933] [Security Area: G11.837] [Sniper Non-Target (EXC Caves): A14.22] [Starshells NA: E1.923]

I read "including" to mean "here are some examples of, but this is not a complete and definitive list". So, if you just consider the definition bit - "a separate, underground Location or passage" - it would appear that a cellar is subterranean.

But the rules for Control say:

A26.11: During play, a side gains Control of a Location/hex/building by occupying it with an armed Good Order Infantry MMC without the presence of an armed enemy ground unit [EXC: subterranean units] in that same Location/hex/building

which means that if the only thing in a building is one of my squads, and my opponent enters that building, if my squad is on the ground level, I retain Control of the building, but if I'm in a cellar, he takes Control (because my unit is subterranean), which just seems wrong.

Now, it's possible the EXC is referring to the "armed Good Order Infantry MMC" but you would think the rule would then be written:

A26.11: During play, a side gains Control of a Location/hex/building by occupying it with an armed Good Order Infantry MMC [EXC: subterranean units] without the presence of an armed enemy ground unit in that same Location/hex/building

So, are cellars subterranean or not?

 

[Vinnie]

In Red Barricades they certainly are not.

6. RB CELLARS

6.1 All multi-hex, non-Factory buildings depicted on the RB map contain beneath their ground-level Location (i.e., at building level -1) a RB Cellar level (beneath which is that hex's sewer level, if any).6 A RB Cellar Location is considered the equivalent of another non-rooftop building Location in that hex (even for falling rubble [B24.12] and Victory Condition purposes) except as specified otherwise. The RB Cellar level is ignored when

 

[Pacman Ghost]

I don't see the point you're making. The rule you cited says that cellars exist beneath the building's ground-level Location i.e. they're underground, and that they are their own separate Location. IOW, they fit the index definition of subterranean.

 

[Vinnie]

They are not subterranean locations. They are a lower than ground level building location but share non of the other aspects of subterranean location like immunity to sniper fire. They are still a building location and part of the building for control purposes.

 

[Pacman Ghost]

They are still a building location and part of the building for control purposes.

My question isn't whether or not cellars count as part of the building for control purposes, clearly they do, my question is regarding the mechanics of taking control away from the other guy.

If I enter a building and the only thing he has in it is a squad on the ground floor, then clearly he retains control of the building. However, if the squad is in a cellar, and a cellar is considered to be subterranean, then the EXC in A26.11 means that I take control of the building. This seems both dumb and wrong to me, but AFAICT, that's what the rules say.

"Subterranean" is defined as "a separate, underground Location or passage", which appears to include cellars. If the definition said "Subterranean Locations are Caves, Cave Complexes, Culverts, Passages, Sewers, and Tunnels, full stop", then it's clear that cellars are not subterranean, but as written, it's less clear... ?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I read "including" to mean "here are some examples of, but this is not a complete and definitive list". So, if you just consider the definition bit - "a separate, underground Location or passage" - it would appear that a cellar is subterranean.

I think that is a complete list. I.e., an RB Cellar is not a subterranean Location.

Here is a Q&A that is slightly related:
A12.152 & Index (Subterranean)
Can we simply state that if a location is NOT subterranean, it is “above ground”?
A. For the purposes of searching this will work. Cellars are revealed when a hex is searched.

Guess you could drop MMP a Q&A asking about your specific question.

 

[Pacman Ghost]

I think that is a complete list. I.e., an RB Cellar is not a subterranean Location

Thanks for that. I think the intent is that cellars are not subterranean, it's just a slightly unclear wording in the index definition that opens the door to the possibility that they might be. I'm sure there would be other weird side-effects, over and above the taking control of buildings I mentioned, if they were...

 

[Pacman Ghost]

I think the intent is that cellars are not subterranean

Of course, this then creates an interesting interaction with your Q+A: if cellars are not subterranean, then they are considered to be "above ground" Yes, the answer qualified itself with "[f]or the purposes of searching", but still...