AOO & ASLRB Update

[WaterRabbit]

Also, the suggestion that someone/anyone at MMP isn't working hard enough is ridiculous.

What wall did you pull that one off of?

Part-time businesses are not at all unusual in the wargaming industry, which is, after all, a niche industry.

Yes, they are called hobbies.

If a person works a full-time job (i.e. 40-50 hours per week) they have little time and/or incentive to work an additional job unless they can't make ends meet with the first.

I would like to see a situation where MMP makes sufficient ROI to employ at least one designer full-time (for the ASL side of things). Otherwise what is the point? Have they spent 8 years trying to build a business and haven't been able to progress to the point where it can support them? That doesn't sound like a successful business to me. I can only hope that their Income - Expense is greater than zero.

Maybe they need to relocate to a less expensive location. Maybe they should explore a maquiladoras printing outfit to cut down on expenses.

Unless your business has a wargame with real mass-appeal, it's difficult to even break even most of the time.

In the PC world, 5000 units is considered good enough for a small design studio to make a profit. The same number for the console world would be a dismal failure. The TacOps/POA model is not the only model for success. The studio (Tesseraction) that created Enigma: Rising Tide has employed between 10 and 20 people at various levels and times. This was hardly a blockbusting title.

 

[da priest]

..If it is a successful business it must be able to support its employees/owners full-time. ...

Seem pretty cocksure about that. Just what size family do you support? And what second business on the side do you run, successfully?

You seem to intentionally leave out a lot of issues here. Small business, part-time, quality work(when they get it done), and numerous other items.

Wish I was that sure of my thoughts about the MMP dudes as you....

 

[Chas Argent]

What wall did you pull that one off of?

You said "Otherwise, they are just dicking around."

 

[Nat Mallet]

I would like to see a situation where MMP makes sufficient ROI to employ at least one designer full-time (for the ASL side of things). Otherwise what is the point? Have they spent 8 years trying to build a business and haven't been able to progress to the point where it can support them? That doesn't sound like a successful business to me.

I think you're missing the point. The MMP guys didn't start the business to make money, they started the business to keep wargaming alive. With that goal in mind, the ROI, or the fact that the company revenues aren't enough to support the entire staff are irrelevant.

I think MMP is wildly successful. Take a look at the other hobbyist companies that produce material for ASL. While most deliver awesome scenario packs, map and counters, how many deliver material that's on par with things like AoO and ASLSK?

Frankly, I think the whining and complaining is completely over the top. If it wasn't for MMP, we'd have no hobby, and we should be thanking them instead of vilifying them.

In the PC world, 5000 units is considered good enough for a small design studio to make a profit.

As someone who worked for a small video game studio, I can tell you this number is nowhere near the mark. 5000 units isn't even enough for a one-man development shop. 50,000 is the minimum mark, and even then, you're only breaking even if your staff is composed of geniuses working for minimum wage.

Nat

 

[Phil Palmer]

And now for something completely different

Folks, just to get everyone's bloodpressure back under control I spent the night working on AOO and will be spending my time working on AOO.

Not to change the subject, but can't find the answer anywhere else---
Have the dates for Winter Offensive 2005 been set. Don't see it on the MMP
site and there was no reply under the Tourney thread.

Phil "can't wait to get spanked by 5-7 strangers" Palmer

 

[Chas Argent]

Phil, here is a link to the WO info & registration page:

http://www.multimanpublishing.com/wo.php

 

[Reepicheep]

Not sure how you could have missed on MP's site, Phil! The link is right on their homepage. Anyway, it lists the dates as "January 13 - January 16"

The direct link to the WO page is http://www.multimanpublishing.com/wo.php

 

[da priest]

kdalton vbmenu_register("postmenu_214368", true);
Multi-Man Publishing - Public Relations

Real Name: Keith Dalton
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 528


2005 Winter Offensive Information
Hey guys,

Winter Offensive information is now on line.

You can register for our January tournament here:

http://www.multimanpublishing.com/wo.php
__________________
Visit Multi-Man Publishing at http://www.multimanpublishing.com




Err..from THIS site....

 

[Pitman]

Don, I was really surprised to see this comment of yours:

"PCs are now dominating the wargame hobby and MMP has a very tough job in front of them."

I would say that, far from "dominating" wargaming, computer wargames are actually a niche within wargaming. At one point, computer wargames threatened to overtake board wargaming, and there was much bemoaning this point, but then the computer wargame industry essentially collapsed, and pretty much lost its retail presence, just as board wargames had earlier.

The vast majority of wargames produced each year are board wargames. Leaving aside Civilization-style 4X games, I think computer wargames are having a minimal impact on wargaming these days.

 

[Countertroll]

I suspect Mark is correct that computer wargames do not take much from wargames.
But, FPS computer games on the other hand I suspect are.

Hmm, borrow your dad's ASLRB, or throw down online with your friends and Call Of Duty/Doom 3/Everquest/Halo 2/etc. Those types of games are probably having a negative impact on the growth of the wargame population.

 

[Pitman]

I thought Don was saying that computer wargames were the dominant force within wargames. If he was saying that computer games in general were competing with wargamers for players, that's a different subject and my remarks were not intended to respond to it.

 

[Countertroll]

either way Mark, your comments were spot on. PC Wargames are not particularly good. Talonsoft made some that we tolerable. The Combat Mission stuff is also OK. After that...I do not know.<br>

 

[GJK]

either way Mark, your comments were spot on. PC Wargames are not particularly good. Talonsoft made some that we tolerable. The Combat Mission stuff is also OK. After that...I do not know.<br>

Matrix games is still very active, but I agree, computer wargames are a niche as well - unless you count the RTS games (Desert Rats vs Rommel or Blitzkrieg for example, no debate from me that they aren't actual "wargames"). I think another point though comparing computer wargames to board wargames is the costs and delivery.

I don't have figures, but I would assume that developing a computer wargame may cost a bit more for programmers, but the costs to mass produce and distribute have got to be far less. Matrix games (again, for example) is even going to an all electronic distribution method. Nothing is actually shipped unless you pay additional for it. War In The Pacific is selling for $70.00 US just for the download, and judging by the forum relating to it, there's a good size market there.

 

[Dr Zaius]

Guys I hate to tell you this, but if some of you still think boardgames are the dominate force in the hobby, you need to get out more. I didn't say anything about either PC or board-based wargames being better or worse than the other, I was talking about $$$ and the the size of the fanbase. There's no need for me to waste space here comparing the two because there's nothing to compare. Boardgames are a tiny niche within the community and getting smaller by the minute.

I know A LOT of people in this industry and I do this stuff for a living. Believe whatever you want, it makes no difference to me.

 

[Countertroll]

umm, Don, no one was disagreeing with you; relax.

 

[Dr Zaius]

umm, Don, no one was disagreeing with you; relax.

I just came from the politics forum when I typed that. Sorry. I'm relaxed now!

 

[Pitman]

Don, so you are asserting that computer wargames (not real time strategy games or first person shooters, but actual wargames) are dominant over board wargames?

I would need to see a lot of proof before I would accept such a statement. I don't keep up with the industry as much as I used to, when I was reviewing computer games for PC Gamer. Still, there are far fewer different computer wargames produced than board wargames, far fewer people making computer wargames, there are no magazines or other publications about computer wargames, there are few (if any) computer wargame events anywhere, and so on and so forth. In fact, computer wargaming these days rarely ever even supports anything other than the most popular topics: WWII, Civil War, Napoleon. Computer wargames were part of the mainstream of computer games in the 1980s, back in the days of SSI, but have fallen so far that they are an insignificant, almost unnoticeable part of computer games today. The demise of Talonsoft pretty much spelled the end to their retail presence, too. Now perhaps it is possible that despite being insignificant in terms of the computer gaming market, computer wargames are nevertheless dominant over board wargames, but again, that is not a statement I'd simply accept without proof.

 

[GJK]

Don, so you are asserting that computer wargames (not real time strategy games or first person shooters, but actual wargames) are dominant over board wargames?

I would need to see a lot of proof before I would accept such a statement.

If Korsun Pocket gets a Gamespy game of the year award for 2003 SOURCE, I'd be very willing to say that that game alone has sold more copies than all of ASL products combined. I believe that the Combat Mission series of games have won similar awards for their category. These games are sold in EB, Frys Electronics, Babbages - where the best that ASL was ever sold was select hobby stores across the country. There's no comparison.

 

[WaterRabbit]

You said "Otherwise, they are just dicking around."

'Dicking around' <> Slacker -- which is apparently your definition.

'Dicking around' means constantly working at something, but not making much progress, often breaking it in the process.

EX: My watch stopped and I gave it to my buddy to fix. He dicked around with it for a couple of days but couldn't get it to work. In the process he accidentally broke the minute hand off of it. I took the watch to a watch repair shop and it was fixed in 15 minutes, but he had to order the minute hand since he didn't have one in stock.

Now I don't know about Brian and Perry, but it is clear to all of us that Curt has another job. I am willing to bet that when a time conflict occurs between Baseball and ASL, ASL looses -- as it rightly should. Add to that a family life and other life interruptions and ASL is probably not in the top 5 for time prioritization.

On the other hand, if they hired a full-time designer (or one of them took that role themselves) there would be constant measurable progress. It would be their primary focus. The problem, IMHO, with not being 'All-in' is that projects that should take hours take days. Projects that should take days take weeks, weeks take months, months take years, and years take a decade or more.

As someone who worked for a small video game studio, I can tell you this number is nowhere near the mark. 5000 units isn't even enough for a one-man development shop. 50,000 is the minimum mark, and even then, you're only breaking even if your staff is composed of geniuses working for minimum wage.

Nat

You must live in an expensive part of the country.

The 50,000 mark was what Sierra hoped to get on an average PC title. Blizzard could generally beat that mark by quite a bit. The reason I picked Enigma is that it is following the pricing model for a small studio – I seriously doubt they have sold that many copies, but I could be wrong I'll have to check. I just haven’t heard much buzz about it. A large studio will drop the price of a game about 6 months to a year after release. A smaller studio can't afford to do that.

However, the point I was trying to make is that a game (whether computer or board) can make money in a niche market without the need for military contracts – but they have to follow a business model that makes sense for them, not for a large company.

 

[WaterRabbit]

Seem pretty cocksure about that. Just what size family do you support? And what second business on the side do you run, successfully?

You seem to intentionally leave out a lot of issues here. Small business, part-time, quality work(when they get it done), and numerous other items.

Wish I was that sure of my thoughts about the MMP dudes as you....

LOL. Ron, don't be so coy, you are the most cocksure person that posts on this board, BAR NONE.

Despite your efforts to twist my words here, I have not attacked anyone who works for MMP. It seems the only way you can get this interpretation is if you are looking for a fight. And perhaps you are since this is the fourth time you have personally attacked me and not the content of my posts. At least Scott has the stones to state his attacks directly and not in such an effete manner.

Is your impugning of my intelligence a subtle reminder that I need to change my sig. again? Well, at least you are deriving some amusement from them. Apparently donut remarks gets you chastised by the moderators but calling someone stupid does not. Perhaps you are too subtle for them. At least Don mildly rebuked you the last time you took a shot at me.

I do have to wonder about the character of a person who constantly attacks the poster and not the post. I have seen at least 15 different instances of this from you. Are you looking for a nomination to the ASL List of Shame? You are going to have to work harder if you want to unseat Berger and Ostrander from the top two positions. [Berger for allegedly cheating and Ostrander for the worst kind of poor sportsmanship]

Despite your assertion, I am not intentionally leaving out anything. I am trying to make sense out of a situation. Obviously I don't have all of the pertinent information -- otherwise I would not need to seek it.

However, AoO is not the Herculean task people are representing it as. It should have taken a couple of years at most to complete it. A large amount of the work has already been done (rules and boards). So we are left with Chapter H notes, counters, scenarios, and a box. TOT published Chapter H notes, counters, and scenarios in what, a year? All on the same subject matter (see March Madness Pack 1998). Now the counters aren’t the greatest, but that’s about it.

Don't get me wrong, MMP has done a good job overall. Action Pack #2, the 96/97 Annual, and the Journals were all good products. They have done a good job on the two historical studies as well (in effect big Action Packs). {As an aside, I like the Action Pack/Historical Study format and would prefer that they continue with that as opposed to including boards in the Journal. However, if that is their method of delivering the Starter Kit boards to the grognards, then I would be fine with that.}

I can't give them too much credit for ABTF and BRT since they were developed from HOB designs, but I have derived enjoyment from them. DB was overall fairly good though it suffered from the transition fiasco. I am indifferent to the Starter Kit other than I don't like the boards. I am also indifferent to their redesigns of the various modules other than it appears they don't have a coherent plan for them. The rulebook is also a wash. It cleaned up and combined a few items (though clarity and grammar are still problematic in places), but they included what looks like more expensive components (the charts don't really need to be printed separately) and didn't go far enough. At some point they will have to put out another version that includes all of the rules. What am I missing?

Now if you have some special insight, please share. Otherwise, keep your personal attacks to yourself. I would ask you to place me on your ignore list, but we all saw how long that lasted with Scott. I guess you just missed him.

P.S. I do run a successful computer consulting business – my income from it exceeds my personal expenses. However, to run a small business it takes three personalities – Entrepreneur, Manager, and Technician. My strength is the latter and not the other two. I don’t have to support a family, though that seems irrelevant to the discussion. Quality of work depends upon people, talent, and focus not the size of the business. The part-time part I am trying to understand, since quite a few ASL players would jump at the chance to get a full-time designer job. Numerous other items would be what exactly?